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Old 08-02-2016, 10:13 AM   #271
Leo41
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Sailor-

That makes sense. I know that we're all physiologically different, and even among Type2 diabetics there are many differences. I know (from family members) that for a diabetic, controlling blood sugar takes precedence over everything, so any plan that helps control bs is a boon to a diabetic.
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Old 08-02-2016, 10:38 AM   #272
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Gina-
Yes, but eating very low carb will also keep insulin low, so I really don't see the advantage to fasting. I'm currently doing zero carb (just fish and meat with fats), and I'm eating a lot and have lost below my goal weight (143 this morning).

As I've posted before, I once did a 3-day 'water' fast for a colonoscopy and didn't notice any difference in my body at all. Perhaps there were wonderful things happening internally, but nothing that I noticed then or later. AND all the weight I lost from that fast was simply water because it returned the day after I began eating my normal low-carb.

I'm not knocking 'fasting,' but I'm suspicious of a lot of the claims Dr. Fung makes because they don't resonate with my experience.
Every one is different. That's the only truth about 'what works' in the diet world, I think.
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Old 08-02-2016, 10:59 AM   #273
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Hi Leo,

Since you are eating zero carb, I suspect you are no longer (if indeed, you ever were) insulin resistant. IF is recommended by Fung and others for those that aren't seeing good results with low carb only.

My experience is very different from yours. When I first switched to low carb 4 years ago, I lost 30 pounds in 6 months and then stalled. Despite doing everything "right", including keeping net carbs around 20 and calories under 1400 per day, for the next 3 years that new weight of 195 seemed to be my new set weight. Last Fall (2015) I started eating more starches and sugars and, of course, started storing more fat and by May of this year I was up to 208 pounds.

So, made the decision to start low carb again in mid May, but this time LCHF. The weight loss was slow (just call me Turtle) until I started IF (16/8 - 18/6) with two 36 - 40 hour fasts per week. For the first time in over 20 years I am now losing weight at around 2 lbs. per week.

DrunkenSailor pretty much nailed it. Fung works primarily with people who have severe insulin resistance and a low carb lifestyle alone is not enough for them to see successful weight loss. The fasting protocols were designed to help those people.

Since your low carb/0 carb lifestyle works for you, there's absolutely no reason you would need to include fasting for weight loss. For those of us who are frustrated with our lack of progress despite following a low carb plan "religiously", cutting out snacks and adding IF seems to be the missing puzzle piece.

Hope that helps you understand why so many of us are quite excited about IF.

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Last edited by cgwwilson; 08-02-2016 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:04 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Leo41 View Post
Gina-
Yes, but eating very low carb will also keep insulin low, so I really don't see the advantage to fasting. I'm currently doing zero carb (just fish and meat with fats), and I'm eating a lot and have lost below my goal weight (143 this morning).

As I've posted before, I once did a 3-day 'water' fast for a colonoscopy and didn't notice any difference in my body at all. Perhaps there were wonderful things happening internally, but nothing that I noticed then or later. AND all the weight I lost from that fast was simply water because it returned the day after I began eating my normal low-carb.

I'm not knocking 'fasting,' but I'm suspicious of a lot of the claims Dr. Fung makes because they don't resonate with my experience.
I think everyone is different. I've personally seen significant benefits from fasting even though I generally eat very low carb. The two big things that I've experienced is a decrease in hunger/cravings and significantly faster weight loss than I had with just very low carb. In the past, even with very low carb, I had days where I struggled with staying on the diet because of cravings, especially around my TOM - the fasting has really eliminated that. Also, if I do have a higher carb day, I really struggled after that with wanting more carbs, perhaps because I was kicked out of ketosis. Now, if I do for some reason eat a few more carbs than normal, the next day I fast and I don't struggle with the aftermath of the carbs like I used to. Perhaps if I ate zero carb I wouldn't see a difference - but for me personally, 1) I'm not perfect, so occasionally slip up with a few more carbs and 2) I'd rather be able to eat some form of carbs in vegetables, etc. and fast than just eat meat and fats. Zero carb just wouldn't work with my lifestyle (or many people's I suspect) - but fasting does.

Fasting isn't going to be right for everyone, but it certainly seems to work for and help many. In the same way, not everyone would espouse zero carbs as you do, but just because of that, it doesn't negate your experience that it worked for you. Shrugs. Different strokes for different folks.

Last edited by SarahDee; 08-02-2016 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:35 AM   #275
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I thought I'd share something kinda cool -- my in laws are staying with my family for a few days. I wondered what they would think about my low carb diet and my OMAD IF that I've been doing.

I knew my father in law had lost about 30 pounds in the last year or so and kept it off, but I thought he did it by just eating low calorie/low fat (he has had serious heart disease, so watches his fats per his doctor). Anyway, we got to talking and he said he lost the weight and kept it off buy eating one meal a day! And my mother in law, who has always been very petite and stable in her weight, said she skips breakfast and usually also lunch - that she's done that for about 20 years. My husband also always skips breakfast - just his natural way of eating. Before I started on this WOE I used to say it wasn't healthy.

So I guess we are a family of IF-ers - and here I thought I was doing something so new and special! haha!
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:39 AM   #276
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LOVE it !!!!
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:41 AM   #277
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OK--you people have me confused! Seriously, I'm trying to figure this out for ME.

Carolyn- You suggest that I am not longer (if ever) insulin resistant, but when I Google that concept, it says that carb 'sensitivity' and insulin resistance are the same thing. And I am SUPER sensitive to carbs. I lost all my weight at <20g carbs, and twice when I tried to climb the Atkins 'ladder,' I began to gain at 30g, and my appetite came roaring back. My hyperinsulineimia was not 'cured' by weight loss. That's why I think my body responds so well to zero carb--I limit insulin as much as possible.

I totally agree that everyone is different, but I think it's important to keep the physiology (science) correct.

Many diabetics have difficulty managing their BG because their meds complicate the issue enormously AND their responses to foods varies. For example, my sister, who is now a controlled Type 2 after WLS, found that she could eat pasta with a minimal rise in BG, yet dairy was a problem. That's why many diabetics have to 'eat to the meter.' And that may be why fasting is so helpful to them because unless my sister ate the same foods for every meal (already checked on her meter), she would not be able to control the insulin 'spikes' that could occur
with any food she hadn't already vetted.
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:09 PM   #278
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Hi Leo,

My understanding is that they are similar but not identical. Only way to know if you are insulin resistant is to test your fasting insulin levels, although having a waist circumference to height ratio greater than 0.5 is a strong indicator. . .

No longer being insulin resistant doesn't mean you'll be able to tolerate carbs beyond your own sensitivity (don't we all wish!!).

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Old 08-02-2016, 12:48 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post
Hi Leo,

My understanding is that they are similar but not identical. Only way to know if you are insulin resistant is to test your fasting insulin levels, although having a waist circumference to height ratio greater than 0.5 is a strong indicator. . .

No longer being insulin resistant doesn't mean you'll be able to tolerate carbs beyond your own sensitivity (don't we all wish!!).

*****

Carolyn

I read a comment by a doctor that he always includes a fasting insulin test when he orders a blood glucose test for a patient. He feels that not doing so borders on malpractice.

However, since SOC (standards of care) have not changed it is not considered malpractice and many doctors won't order it.

He gave examples of how patients can have high BG and low insulin or low BG and very high insulin and BG alone won't be enough for a complete diagnosis.

If the doctor won't order this test, we would not know the whole picture. I find this somewhat upsetting.

Last edited by susan46; 08-02-2016 at 12:49 PM..
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:54 PM   #280
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Insulin resistance can and does persist in some people despite eating keto and having lost weight. Dr. Fung refers to a study that measured fasting insulin rate and compared them to those that were not metabolically 'challenged'. Sure enough, fasting insulin rates were higher than the norm in these people. So while eating keto or low carb can go a long way to helping with insulin resistance, in some people, it seems to go only so far.

Fasting is the solution. It is because it keeps insulin low for long periods of time. I too have spent literally years in maintenance despite many different methods to get weight loss happening again. All to no avail. I.F. has helped me get past my long term set point and stay there. I am still monumentally slow with weight loss but it is moving in the right direction. I suspect I need to do longer fasts but summer seems just too challenging to do more than OMAD for some reason. I think this fall will be my opportunity to begin using longer fasts.
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Old 08-02-2016, 01:37 PM   #281
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'Insulin resistance can and does persist in some people despite eating keto and having lost weight.'

I suspect this is more common among the 'substantially reduced' than not because those of us who get to 300+ level almost always have a significant metabolic issue.

That's why those who focus on maintenance (like Dr. Barbara Berkeley of Refuse to Regain and Gillian Riley recommend low-carb eating as the most important way to deal with long-term weight management.
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Old 08-02-2016, 01:47 PM   #282
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All I know that for me, when I get in the groove with fasting -- I love the energy, I love that my stomach shrinks and I can't overeat, and I love the weight loss.
I also love that I can eat a piece of cake guilt-free if I want to.

Right now I'm just combining Stillman's foods with OMAD so I can get a weight loss boost and increase my morale.
Absolutely love fasting.
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Old 08-02-2016, 02:05 PM   #283
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I read a comment by a doctor that he always includes a fasting insulin test when he orders a blood glucose test for a patient. He feels that not doing so borders on malpractice.
I just did a quick check and found this lab that doesn't require your doctor's authorization. It's through labcorp which is one of the main labs in US.
Quote:
The insulin fasting blood test is chiefly used as a test insulin levels and to diagnoses diabetes and insulin resistance. The test can also hypoglycemia, an insulin related disorder.
I found it at walkin lab, but I'm sure there are other options. It's pretty cheap.
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Old 08-02-2016, 05:43 PM   #284
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I've done my own labs before, to check my A1C, BG, liver function etc.
Its WAY cheaper than going to the doctor. Of course if anything were to come back outside normal limits, then I would go to the doctor. Maybe. For me and my health, so far there has been nothing that a healthy diet won't improve.

I've never had an insulin test. Maybe I will ad that if I do it again.
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:11 AM   #285
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I can only speak from personal experience, but I know my fasting glucose and insulin numbers are within the normal range. However, I know I am super sensitive to carbs and can't exceed 20 grams or else I gain. I also have plenty of fat around my middle area that I never had before, so I am suspecting some insulin resistance here. My Dr. says I am fine though. But since insulin resistance runs in my family (my mother has T2D, and my two grandmothers had Alzheimer's) I am taking no risks. Adding fasting to my LCHF WOE has kicked my weightloss into gear again where ZC was less effective and so I am convinced it works for me. I am due a check up in December and will see if my values have improved. I am sure they will if my weight and belly fat keep going down like they are now.
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Old 08-03-2016, 05:55 AM   #286
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Coconut oil is 'duct tape' for your metabolism by Dr. Adam Nally.

Came across this on f.b. group and thought it was a good little video on why c.o. and/or mct oil is great. Basically medium chain triglycerides (mct oil and a good percentage of c.o.) bypass the digestive tract and are delivered to the liver and form ketones quickly. This is immediate energy. There are many more benefits to this that are really compelling including lowering glucose, heart function, etc.. Calories are a swear word in his office.
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Old 08-03-2016, 07:40 AM   #287
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Is there a way you can test your insulin levels yourself? My doctor has never checked mine, just glucose and A1c.

As I understand it, eating very low carb will lower blood sugar levels, but every time you eat you stimulate insulin production. So if you are eating low carb, you might have low blood sugar, but eating more often keeps insulin levels up. With fasting, you are taking in no food for a period of time and that lowers insulin. It's not the amount of calories so much as it is the frequency of eating. Am I right on this? My blood sugar has gone almost back to normal recently as I have cut way back on carbs. But that doesn't mean my insulin levels are back to normal. Some days I go all day without food until dinner. Other days I eat 2-3 low carb meals. I did notice that the blood sugar reading are a little better on the days that I fast until dinner.

I have eaten all the low carb snacks I normally keep in the house and am not buying more. I am trying to just get my food at meals and not having snacks around, except a few hard boiled eggs.
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Old 08-03-2016, 08:12 AM   #288
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Carol, I think you are spot on. The frequency of eating and the excretion of insulin is what Fung fasting is all about.

I think people (like myself) who have likely got severe insulin resistance (never tested - like you), mmight have higher fasting insulin despite low carb/keto eating.
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Old 08-03-2016, 08:18 AM   #289
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Is there a way you can test your insulin levels yourself? My doctor has never checked mine, just glucose and A1c.
This was posted a few posts back.
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I just did a quick check and found this lab that doesn't require your doctor's authorization. It's through labcorp which is one of the main labs in US.

I found it at walkin lab, but I'm sure there are other options. It's pretty cheap.
Quote:
The insulin fasting blood test is chiefly used as a test insulin levels and to diagnoses diabetes and insulin resistance. The test can also hypoglycemia, an insulin related disorder.
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Old 08-03-2016, 08:44 AM   #290
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It's not the amount of calories so much as it is the frequency of eating. Am I right on this? My blood sugar has gone almost back to normal recently as I have cut way back on carbs. But that doesn't mean my insulin levels are back to normal.
Yep, you nailed it! (So glad you're seeing progess.)


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Old 08-03-2016, 12:10 PM   #291
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Happy Humpday Fungsters

Congrats to all those that are getting results. I did a 40 hr fast from Sunday night til Tuesday lunch. For some reason Monday is an easy day for me to fast. I'm going to try to do a 40 hr fast at least twice a month and work up to once a week. The rest of the time I bounce between OMAD and TMAD.

My weight is trending lower, but sooooo slow. I'm still trying to get back to my stats weight (134). I can't seem to get out of the 140's

For all the Fungsters that are on Facebook, Stephanie Dodier interviewed Dr. Fung at Low Carb USA (San Diego last weekend). I enjoyed watching. He answers a lot of questions and gosh, isn't he just adorable?
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Old 08-03-2016, 12:24 PM   #292
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I will look that up, Thank you Lady!
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Old 08-03-2016, 01:51 PM   #293
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Hi!
Week five for me all ready! I lost 16, traveled and gained 3 back. I am sure it will come off with Fung way! I do best with 24 hour fasts, one meal a day with no snacks. Carbs are 20ish.

I have a vacation coming up the 14th so want to be very intentional as I am going to let my hair down with hubby

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Old 08-03-2016, 02:26 PM   #294
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Katie, hope you're feeling better!

Key Tones, fasting is the only thing that has made my appetite fall!

Mimosa, great news on lack of TOM symptoms!I have the same thing regarding our fridge, LOL!

Vanilla Latte, right now my priority is not losing weight, it's gaining muscle/LBM so I'm not trying to reduce my cals at all through fasting. I keep loose track of what I'm eating and check my weekly avg. to make sure I'm not falling below 1700 cals. Yes, that means I eat quite a bit on my eating days.

However, learning about insulin in the way that Dr. Fung talks about it has made my entire weight/dieting/binging history clear to me.

He says you're not fat because you're overeating, you're overeating because you're fat, i.e. too high levels of insulin have locked up your fat cells. So I'm fasting for healthy reasons (the autophagy and HGH which is supposed to be increased once you reach 24 hours and to reduce insulin. Butter Bob Briggs has a GREAT video on why fasting helps way beyond low carb/lchf called Fasting and the 50% Insulin Solution.) After studying Fung's blog and listening to all BBB videos, I understand that my high sugar adolescent diet set me up for Insulin Resistance and weight gain, my peak weight was 162 when I was 18. Although I have kept my weight at 135 or lower for more than 30 years, it had been really hard to keep it below 130 (which I prefer) for the past decade. When I added FAT to my eating, and gradually reduced carbs, my body finally reached a set point where it's been now for past 18 months.

However in past 7 months, I've dropped considerable body fat 29.5% to 24.5%, which makes my body look quite different and clothes fit quite different. However, it's been impossible for me to get below 24.5% BF, because I have trickled into overeating and sugar eating. It is clear when my sugar intake my body fat goes up too. I believe I've continued to veer off into sugar eating and overeating because my background insulin (per BBB's video mentioned above) has been elevated since I was a teenager.

This is why I'm fasting to drop my insulin. I began in June right when I was starting an "overeating jag". What the fasting did was allow me to turn that around quicker than I ever had. Now, as I've resumed my lchf my FBG is coming down. Still not stellar but maintaining between 85 and 95. This is REALLY good for me, and since my appetite has also fallen, I suspect my background insulin is coming down. I intend to keep fasting tor reach and hopefully maintain low insulin levels.

Sorry to go on an on, but I don't think you have to cut cals to get the good effects of the fasting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post
It confused me also - and I'm sure a number of others!

Dr. Jason Fung: It's not about calories. It's about insulin. Reducing calories but not reducing insulin results in metabolic slowdown. Reducing calories and insulin does not.
________

Dr. Jason Fung: I would guess that doubling the time of fasting increases the effectiveness by more than double - likely 2.5 times.


Carolyn
Carolyn, thanks for that info! It totally confirms my experience.


Quote:
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The question is, how closely are blood glucose and insulin related when doing fasting. I remember Fung saying it was possible to reduce glucose without lowering insulin resistance, but I think that was without fasting.

When using diet to fight cancer, the recommendation is to eat a ketogenic diet AND restrict calories to lower blood glucose.

It certainly is possible, that in both cases it is really insulin and glucose is being used as a marker for insulin. It could be because it is so easy to test glucose and more difficult to test insulin.
Beach guy, I also remember reading somewhere on Fung's site that you can reduce FBG without lowering insulin. I wonder if the cancer info isn't taking insulin into account. Like if you did keto and fasting, would you have to worry so much about your calories?

I'm planning to continue my 2x per week 36 hour fasts until (hopefully) my FBG comes down to 70s (well, actually I expect to continue incorporating these fasts into my life for health maintenance) and currently have no plans to reduce calories. I am curious to see where I'll be in a year, it has only been two months!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyof8 View Post
My question is: Why do I get intense sugar cravings about 45 min. after eating?

I ate two turkey patties, two eggs, 1/4 cup cottage cheese & 2 TB SF ketchup.
Katie, I'm a fatty meat girl, but that's probably not Stillmans!?!?!?! I agree with Mimosa, the protein may (?) be too high? Or maybe just sugar withdrawal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahatl View Post
How do you all do this? Yesterday I ate very low carb....had a hard time falling asleep - could not sleep until 2am. This morning when I woke I felt so weak I could barely stand it...My fasting BS was 90 which was great. I had a piece of ezekial bread with almond butter (should have been eggs)and now feel better but I was feeling so weak before. Do any of you feel weak and tired from no breakfast or does it take a few days to get over that?
Sarah, my husband and I did three long fasts when I was in my forties (in my fifties now) and I felt like a wreck every time. He didn't. I suspect it was because of my lifelong sugar binging habit. Now after eating LCHF for four years, fasting is a COMPLETELY different experience. Not sure if you're LCHF or not, but even now if I have more carbs before my fast, the fast is more difficult.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post
Hi Leo,
Fung works primarily with people who have severe insulin resistance and a low carb lifestyle alone is not enough for them to see successful weight loss. The fasting protocols were designed to help those people.
Carolyn
Carolyn, Fung's work (and BBB's) videos totally helped me get why some people can do low carb/LCHF/VLC/Keto and not lose weight. Yes, the fasting can break that pattern.

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Originally Posted by SarahDee View Post
Anyway, we got to talking and he said he lost the weight and kept it off buy eating one meal a day! And my mother in law, who has always been very petite and stable in her weight, said she skips breakfast and usually also lunch - that she's done that for about 20 years. My husband also always skips breakfast - just his natural way of eating. Before I started on this WOE I used to say it wasn't healthy.

So I guess we are a family of IF-ers - and here I thought I was doing something so new and special! haha!
AWESOME!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by susan46 View Post
He gave examples of how patients can have high BG and low insulin or low BG and very high insulin and BG alone won't be enough for a complete diagnosis.
I've never had this test, but I suspect that even though my FBG didn't reach diabetic, that I've had high insulin most of my life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
I.F. has helped me get past my long term set point and stay there.
Which probably means your background insulin has been reduce through fasting! YAY!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partyof8 View Post
All I know that for me, when I get in the groove with fasting -- I love the energy, I love that my stomach shrinks and I can't overeat, and I love the weight loss.
I also love that I can eat a piece of cake guilt-free if I want to.

Right now I'm just combining Stillman's foods with OMAD so I can get a weight loss boost and increase my morale.
Absolutely love fasting.
Go ... go ... go!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PACarolsue View Post
As I understand it, eating very low carb will lower blood sugar levels, but every time you eat you stimulate insulin production. So if you are eating low carb, you might have low blood sugar, but eating more often keeps insulin levels up. With fasting, you are taking in no food for a period of time and that lowers insulin. It's not the amount of calories so much as it is the frequency of eating. Am I right on this?
That is my understanding as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grneyedldy View Post
I did a 40 hr fast from Sunday night til Tuesday lunch. For some reason Monday is an easy day for me to fast. I'm going to try to do a 40 hr fast at least twice a month and work up to once a week.
Yay!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie Renee View Post
Hi!
Week five for me all ready! I lost 16, traveled and gained 3 back. I am sure it will come off with Fung way! I do best with 24 hour fasts, one meal a day with no snacks. Carbs are 20ish.

I have a vacation coming up the 14th so want to be very intentional as I am going to let my hair down with hubby

Hehe! Sounds like you're doing great!

I finished my 17th 36-hour fast this morning. My sugar/all sweetener/caffeine-fee life is improving. I'm not breaking any energy records but I'm not falling asleep at my desk when working anymore, either Overall, I'm experiencing that nebulous feeling better

Last edited by ButterBaconBurgers; 08-03-2016 at 02:31 PM.. Reason: missing words
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Old 08-03-2016, 03:02 PM   #295
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Bacon, I love your energy. <3 You're such a good person making sure to respond to every one. Good job on your 36 hour fast.
Sorry I don't respond to every one...
and yes, I am still sick. Going to Dr on Friday
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Old 08-03-2016, 03:11 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by ButterBaconBurgers View Post
Beach guy, I also remember reading somewhere on Fung's site that you can reduce FBG without lowering insulin. I wonder if the cancer info isn't taking insulin into account. Like if you did keto and fasting, would you have to worry so much about your calories?
Cancer feeds on glucose, so it's definitely glucose we want to lower to fight cancer. The experts say to restrict calories also because protein and even fat can be used to make glucose. I am likely to get prostate cancer at some point, so I try every year or so to get glucose as low as I can. I shoot for the 60's for at least a week.
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Old 08-03-2016, 06:22 PM   #297
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Thank you for all the Fung friends keeping this thread going and happening!!!

......SO EXCITED!! Just got The Obesity Code from the library. Lots of holds here in the southwest. Only read a few pages, my home is unusually busy due to school starting.

Still noticing that my bounces up from regular eating are within the .4 to 1.2lb range, even with moderate to higher carbs. That is super cool!!!

Oh yes, I need to get out more, books and bounces are super exciting right now!!! Haha!!!
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Old 08-03-2016, 08:02 PM   #298
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Hi all . OMAD for me today, the tough part is that it was lunch. I am at a training with catered meals most of this week. Passing on breakfast is easy, but not lunch. I did a little clothes shopping after work though and the three-way mirror is keeping me on the straight and narrow for the evening.
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Old 08-03-2016, 08:45 PM   #299
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Hooray, Gina <3
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Old 08-03-2016, 11:32 PM   #300
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Morning all!

Just popping in quickly, this thread is just excellent! So much great information, and I am so happy to read people's individual wins with IF! So motivating.

I have been having a hard time getting past 24 hour IF, so yesterday I had two meals, upped my fats a little and at dinner time had a proper keto high fat meal, so I should be set for a longer fast. I think it's also my brain playing tricks on me! I am aiming for minimum 48 hours, trying to get to 72 hours...



Quote:
Originally Posted by grneyedldy View Post
For all the Fungsters that are on Facebook, Stephanie Dodier interviewed Dr. Fung at Low Carb USA (San Diego last weekend). I enjoyed watching. He answers a lot of questions and gosh, isn't he just adorable?
I saw the video too, really good! Thanks for reminding us here!
That FB group is good, lots of information there!



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