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Old 01-05-2017, 07:04 AM   #61
Vlo1125
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Oh forgot to add I'm down 3.8 from my dd woot woot! First true dd since before xmas that I saw all the way thru! I also went to practice for the first time in 2 months last night( long story) so I got a workout in too! I did feel a little shakey while I was scrimmaging and some intense hunger pangs but it passed. So today will be a keto ud and I'm Very curious to see what my weight will do tomorrow morning. I had half an avocado for breakfast cause it was perfectly ripe and I don't want it to go to waste I'm also going to make a low carb chicken cordon bleu casserole from busybliss dot com that looks Devine. It's topped with crushed pork rinds which just sounds wrong but I can't wait to find out!
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:13 AM   #62
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Oh forgot to add I'm down 3.8 from my dd woot woot!

Saw that on the tracker thread. Yay!!!
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:39 AM   #63
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Good morning everyone. Have to write down all your names! I found the LC discussion interesting, as I have been pushing it and doing it for the last 2 years, and am now heavier than I have been in the last 3 years. I do think it works, but as soon as I go off it, the weight goes back on even faster. By some divine intervention last week, I ended up on a JUDDD thread by mistake and saw Carly's story and thought, what the heck, I'll try it. I miss my whole wheat bread, my fruits, etc. So, I started JUDDD on January 1st, and today, even after an UD yesterday where I had rye and coke and some Christmas chocolate leftovers, I was down another .4 over yesterday morning, for a total of 3.8 pounds. It is "magic" to me, as someone (Carly?) said. I am eating up to my UD total (1741) and went over a little on my Tuesday DD (should've been 380 or so) but I see a lot of people stay under 500, so I thought that would be okay. I am really noticing how many calories are in things, which I never did on LC. Perhaps as I am older, my metabolism has changed and that is why the weight was packing on, the moment I stopped LC and just ate normally. Either way, I am sticking to this for a while, I am definitely eating less calories but feeling very satisfied on UDs. My biggest dilemma is being invited out for dinner tonight at old friends, and it's my DD, so do I shoot for just a medium day instead and go back to a full DD tomorrow? I would love to hear from all of you who have had such success. Gotta run, taking my daughter to the dentist.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:19 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by HockeyMum View Post
Good morning everyone. Have to write down all your names! I found the LC discussion interesting, as I have been pushing it and doing it for the last 2 years, and am now heavier than I have been in the last 3 years. I do think it works, but as soon as I go off it, the weight goes back on even faster. By some divine intervention last week, I ended up on a JUDDD thread by mistake and saw Carly's story and thought, what the heck, I'll try it.
This is a LC forum so I'll stay mostly quiet but you absolutely do not have to do LC to be successful at JUDDD. Carly didn't LC and she is very successful. I've also seen people be very successful with JUDDD on other forum while eating pretty much whatever they want. This WOE only works if you stick with it so if it take LC to do that - great. If it takes a mixed diet - great too.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:19 AM   #65
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Good morning:
Well, I am down a little this morning after a good (under 400 calories) DD; today is an UD, and I plan to have a good rib eye steak tonight with au gratin brussels sprouts....probably will be up a little, but definitely staying LC.
I completely agree with all the statements about dieting being what works for you. LC definitely worked for me, and I really didn't get bored, even after 6 years. I think because I got really good at finding recipes that would satisfy any sweet cravings I had...which BTW pretty much diminished with LC after a few months. I gained the weight back (and I agree VERY quickly) when I had my thyroid removed and I used optimizing meds as an excuse to totally go off track. I also believe not having a thyroid, post-menopausal, and stress contributed.
Everyone seems to be recommitted, and ready to go for 2017!
PS: Although I haven't contributed much, I really feel like I "know" you folks, and what a great group of supportive and inspiring people. I wonder how Katie is doing.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:58 AM   #66
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Maybe, over time, there will be a way of predicting what WOE works best for people based on DNA or other variables.

But - no WOE will work for you if it isn't sustainable and something that you can do on your most fraught, difficult day without needing to think about it. We don't need something that demands multiple choices in a day, we need something that we can do without even being conscious of it at times.

I firmly believe that the key to sustainability is when a WOE is so automatic that you don't end up thinking, "Should I?" - you pretty much already have a plan that's ingrained and you know how to comply with it. And even 'off-plans' are scheduled to some extent.

Yes, there's a point at which this all sounds very zen
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:08 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Vlo1125 View Post
Tara- great way to look at it! You did have an awesome 2016 and you still kept most of your progress, I have no doubts you will make your goal happen this year!
Thank you Vlo, and way to go on your great loss!

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Taramisu - thanks and congratulations to you, too! Our cake actually was delicious! They did a really nice job of wrapping it up after the wedding, apparently. We're having a couple friends over this weekend to celebrate the one year down, so we are both going to have a slice then, hope it holds up. So excited to see you reach your 100 pound goal! You'll be there before you know it :-)
Thank you! I made no effort in wrapping our cake at all so I wasn't in any way surprised that it wasn't good, but kind of regretted it. Ah well! Many more milestones to look forward to! Have fun with your friends!

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My biggest dilemma is being invited out for dinner tonight at old friends, and it's my DD, so do I shoot for just a medium day instead and go back to a full DD tomorrow? I would love to hear from all of you who have had such success. Gotta run, taking my daughter to the dentist.
I think you'll figure out in time what works best for you in this situation. If it's a rare thing, sometimes I will adjust calories the next day. I find that I'm more successful if I try to fast all day and then eat something quite light when out to dinner. It can be hard when your friends are ordering steaks or big salads with yummy dressings, but it became really normal for me to just order a couple of small sides (like mashed potatoes and a side salad or mixed veggies, stuff like that) and no one really thought anything about it! Experiment and see how you feel both mentally and physically afterward.

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you absolutely do not have to do LC to be successful at JUDDD. Carly didn't LC and she is very successful. I've also seen people be very successful with JUDDD on other forum while eating pretty much whatever they want.
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no WOE will work for you if it isn't sustainable and something that you can do on your most fraught, difficult day without needing to think about it. We don't need something that demands multiple choices in a day, we need something that we can do without even being conscious of it at times.
I am not LC whatsoever and have had great success with JUDDD. I do still eat a lot of foods that aren't the most healthful and in time that will probably catch up with me, but 1.75 years in to JUDDD, at the end of the day, the number of calories I eat still determines what I lose--not so much the kind of food I ate. I very much agree with all the comments about how the best WOE for you is the one that's sustainable. I appreciate the wisdom in everyone's posts!
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:16 AM   #68
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"
Even though low carb diets are very effective in the short-term, the long-term results are not that great.

Most studies that last for 1-2 years show that the difference between the low-carb and low-fat groups mostly disappears.

There are many possible explanations for this, but the most plausible one is that people tend to abandon the diet over time, and start gaining the weight back.

This is not specific to low carb diets, and is a well known problem in most long-term weight loss studies. Most “diets” are incredibly hard to stick to."


This is from Vlo's (excellent) post below. So we know that if you find a WOE that works and you quit with that WOE it quits working... LOL. I think this is the difference between a diet and a WOE.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:29 AM   #69
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Thanks Portia!

I think it's good to discuss our different opinions and ideas


I think that's the common problem with people who've done LC or any diet really, they lose the weight and gain it all back once they "go back to normal eating". I lost 90 lbs doing a low fat very low cal restricted diet but once I stopped I gained all the weight back plus 20 lbs! I did that diet again, lost 74 lbs, went back to eating "normal" gained all back. Weight watchers lost 50, gained it all back. There is no more going back to normal because for me normal is what got me fat in the first place! I think juddd is the same, it works if you do it but even when you are at goal you still need to do it, look at Carly or slow or kissa or any other maintainers on here ,they are all still doing rotations.

So it obvious that all These eating plans work as long as you do them but the problem is if you don't want it To permanently be your WOE then you need to either find a sustainable diet or use it as tool to lose weight and figure out a maintenance plan after that. Juddd is definitely a way to have your cake and eat it too,and for some that's literal cake! but all of us are different , I have a binge eating problem, I have a piece of cake and I want the whole darn thing!and Judd alone does not help me with it so I use LC as a tool to manage cravings and hunger. I like Portia am using keto as a short term tool to see if it helps me finally get to my goal, if it does great! If it doesn't then I'll keep trying new things till I get there. I do know juddd and LC paleo will always be a part of my diet because they are what I find sustainable, and even though I've had hard times where I've bounced up and down 10-20 lbs in the last year, those 2 things together have kept more than 80 lbs off of me the last 2 years.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:30 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by imoksoami View Post
"
Even though low carb diets are very effective in the short-term, the long-term results are not that great.

Most studies that last for 1-2 years show that the difference between the low-carb and low-fat groups mostly disappears.

There are many possible explanations for this, but the most plausible one is that people tend to abandon the diet over time, and start gaining the weight back.

This is not specific to low carb diets, and is a well known problem in most long-term weight loss studies. Most “diets” are incredibly hard to stick to."


This is from Vlo's (excellent) post below. So we know that if you find a WOE that works and you quit with that WOE it quits working... LOL. I think this is the difference between a diet and a WOE.
Preach!
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:37 AM   #71
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Good discussion! I agree with what many of you have already said- there is no one thing that works for everyone. but to go back to Portia's question- I don't think you are slowing your metabolism being in ketosis, you are just changing your metabolic pathways. what is not very clear to me is the impact of switching between these pathways. what is the impact if you switch between ketosis and glycolysis (carb burning) regularly or after long term ketosis? If I am understanding the pathways correctly, glycolysis is what is using insulin and ketosis generally is not so if you are switching between them is this causing any metobolic damage than sticking to one or the other? or does it not matter? Can the body flawlessly switch between the two pathways or does it make them less efficient? or make one worse than the other?

I started writing this and then had to run off to a meeting and came back to lots of good posts. I think what SlowSure and others have written is exactly right- we need to find a woe that is something we can stick to long term and do as second nature. This can't really be just a "diet" (that 4-letter word) but it has to truly be a woe. In maintenance I plan to still have DD's, as much for fasting benefits as to correct for my nachos and wine.

Vlo I am definitely looking up pressure cooker website. I have an Instapot and I want to use it more!

A question a bit off track from this discussion: does anyone know how to cook trotters? (thats pig feet). I got some in my "doggy pack" from the farm stand and not sure what to do with them....
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:04 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by phoenix17 View Post
Good discussion! I agree with what many of you have already said- there is no one thing that works for everyone. but to go back to Portia's question- I don't think you are slowing your metabolism being in ketosis, you are just changing your metabolic pathways.
Actually, it could slow your metabolism and fairly quickly to boot. There are a ton of studies that show going below 50g cabs/day downregulates the thyroid gland (because the body thinks it's starving due to the chronic low glucose) which will slow the metabolsim. It doesn't happen to everyone but it is common enough to be worrisome. There is also no guarantees that the thyroid will go back to normal once you raise the carbs back to >50g/day, particularly if you are older or had a balky thyroid to begin with. You can get around it by incorporating a refeed (high carb, high protein, very low fat) once or twice a week or by eating a ton of protein (Inuit eating their classic diets are not in ketosis since they typically ate more then 250g protein a day).

Just sayin' it's possible.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:15 AM   #73
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Vlo- do you think you definitely get in to ketosis with one day of water fasting? It makes sense to me you would deplete your glycogen stores after one day but is that true?

Frosty- I see your points but is it slowing glucose metabolism or fat metabolism? Like a few other people said, they ate upwards of 3000 calories/day low carb but LOST weight so I don't now that you could sustain that type of calorie intake and lose weight if your metabolism slows. I suppose that also depends on what your metabolic rate was to start with and if you have a lot to lose... So if your glucose metabolism slows due to changes in thyroid function does it have the same effect on fat metabolism? Interesting.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:35 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by phoenix17 View Post
Frosty- I see your points but is it slowing glucose metabolism or fat metabolism? Like a few other people said, they ate upwards of 3000 calories/day low carb but LOST weight so I don't now that you could sustain that type of calorie intake and lose weight if your metabolism slows. I suppose that also depends on what your metabolic rate was to start with and if you have a lot to lose... So if your glucose metabolism slows due to changes in thyroid function does it have the same effect on fat metabolism? Interesting.
The change would be to your RMR.

No carefully controlled metabolic ward study has shown people were able to lose fat by eating more than their MR required so I take those n=1 stories with a huge grain of salt. Either they are exaggerating, spontaneously raised their activity level, didn't account for temporary water loss or have a problem absorbing fat and were losing calories through defecation (or some combo of all that).

Like I said, if it works for you - great. I just think it's best to be as informed as possible. I bought into the whole "insulin is evil" stuff and went VLCarb for over a year and nuked my thyroid in the process (I'm still fighting it more than five years later), so I am kind of sensitive about this subject.
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:37 AM   #75
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I have to disagree with what's been posted about low carb and thyroid because I've been 'involved' in this situation for more than a decade. I'm hypothyroid (Hashimoto's) but also have been eating very low carb for more than a decade.

Ketosis is actually just a different metabolic pathway for the body, and it in no way slows metabolism. ALL caloric deficits (the only way to lose weight) will slow the metabolism slightly, but not enough to inhibit weight loss, and the metabolism responds to the caloric level--i.e., return to maintenance calories, and the metabolism returns to that level. One of the principles of JUDDD is that just the single day at very low calories doesn't affect the metabolism, which is why it is a good plan.

The belief (really, internet myth) that low carb affects the thyroid is based on the early clinical work of Dr. Atkins and Dr. Eades who observed that their patients who were low carb for a significant length of time had lower levels of T3, the thyroid hormone that controls metabolism. They concluded the metabolism had been slowed.

But subsequent research showed their error. ONE of the functions of T3 in the body is to help with the regulation of blood glucose, so when a person isn't eating
much sugar or starch (carbs!), the body needs less T3 and lowers the level accordingly. The healthy human body naturally regulates hormones by need. What Drs. Atkins and Eades assumed was a problem was, in fact, totally normal for those patients.

I'm checked every 4 months, and I've had discussions about all this with my very excellent endo, and he has confirmed all this to me--and actually loves the way I eat (and loves JUDDD, too, because of the results I've had).

The myth about low T3 with low carb persists because there are a lot of anti-low carb folks around, and they love to use this as an example of the 'danger' of ketosis. Not only did I lose the weight listed in my stats, but I've been maintaining that loss for the past 8 years, and those blood tests I get every 4 months show that my numbers are the envy of my doctors! Ketosis is healthy and low carb is a sustainable way to eat--for me.

Everyone needs to find the best WOE for him/her, but there are no 'dangers' to low carb eating.
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:55 AM   #76
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Vlo- do you think you definitely get in to ketosis with one day of water fasting? It makes sense to me you would deplete your glycogen stores after one day but is that true?
Jumping back in to say I think she (both of you, actually) were referring to my original scenario, which was that doing JUDDD whilst water-fasting on DDs and doing VLC on UDs means that I will get into ketosis (after a few days, not one) and stay there.

Or did I miss something? Posts are so good!

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Old 01-05-2017, 12:48 PM   #77
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I'm glad it works for you Leo. However, you are an outlier in respect to the literature. My n=1 is different than your n=1, fwiw.

T3 is the basal metabolism rate regulator. T3 falls in any kind of hypocaloric situation but falls much more if carbs are very low. Do you have proof that you need lower T3 (and therefore a lower BMR) if you are LC (i.e. not diet blogs)? I see that kind of hand waving all over LC and vegan sites ("you don't need as much X if you don't eat Y"). It's the same exact way that vegans justify their chronically low protein intakes so I would be curious to see if there is actual proof. T3 is also used in fat metabolism so, by this logic, it would also fall on a very low fat diet and you don't see that, that I've been able to find.

Here's just a partial list of the studies I had (I'm supposed to be working so don't have time to dig out the newer ones):

Quote:
***
J Endocrinol Invest. 1982 Jan-Feb;5(1):47-52.Links
Effect of dietary carbohydrates during hypocaloric treatment of obesity on peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism.
Pasquali R, Parenti M, Mattioli L, Capelli M, Cavazzini G, Baraldi G, Sorrenti G, De Benedettis G, Biso P, Melchionda N.

The effect of different hypocaloric carbohydrate (CHO) intakes was evaluated in 8 groups of obese patients in order to assess the role of the CHO and the other dietary sources in modulating the peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. These changes were independent of those of bw. Serum T3 concentrations appear to be more easily affected than those of reverse T3 by dietary manipulation and CHO content of the diet. A fall in T3 levels during the entire period of study with respect to the basal levels occurred only when the CHO of the diet was 120 g/day or less, independent of caloric intake (360, 645 or 1200 calories). Moreover, reverse T3 concentrations were found increased during the entire period of study when total CHO were very low (40 to 50 g/day) while they demonstrated only a transient increase when CHO were at least 105 g/day (with 645 or more total calories). Indeed, our data indicate that a threshold may exist in dietary CHO, independent of caloric intake, below which modifications occur in thyroid hormone concentrations. From these results it appears that the CHO content of the diet is more important than non-CHO sources in modulating peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism and that the influence of total calories is perhaps as pronounced as that of CHO when a "permissive" amount of CHO is ingested.


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Quote:
2: Metabolism. 1980 Aug;29(8):721-7.
Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Thyroid hormone homeostasis in states of relative caloric deprivation.

O'Brian JT, Bybee DE, Burman KD, Osburne RC, Ksiazek MR, Wartofsky L, Georges LP.

Starvation is accomplished by significant changes in the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis and in peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism. Less well studied, however, are the effects on thyroid hormone economy produced by hypocaloric feeding. We explored these changes in obese patients fed 200, 400, or 600 cal/day of either carbohydrate of protein for 28 days. T4' T3' reverse T3 and the TSH response to TRH were measured at frequent intervals. Each patient demonstrated a transient rise in reverse T3 and a fall in T2 that returned to near basal levels by the end of the study period. The TSH response to TRH on the other hand, declined to approximately 50% of control values and remained at that level throughout the course of study, regardless of the type of substrate or calorie level chosen. The results indicated that hypocaloric feeding is associated with changes in thyroid hormone economy similar to those in starvation and that peripheral (changes in T3 and rT3) and central (TRH response) events are controlled by separate mechanisms.

Publication Types:

* Research Support, U.S. Gov't, Non-P.H.S.


PMID: 6772921 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Quote:
3: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1976 Jan;42(1):197-200.
Related Articles, Links

Effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition of serum T3 and reverse T3 in man.

Spaulding SW, Chopra IJ, Sherwin RS, Lyall SS.

To evaluate the effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition on circulating T3 and rT3 obese subjects were studied after 7-18 days of total fasting and while on randomized hypocaloric diets (800 kcal) in which carbohydrate content was varied to provide from 0 to 100% calories. As anticipated, total fasting resulted in a 53% reduction in serum T3 in association with reciprocal 58% increase in rT3. Subjects receiving the no-carbohydrate hypocaloric diets for two weeks demonstrated a similar 47% decline in serum T3 but there was no significant change in rT3 with time. In contrast, the same subjects receiving isocaloric diets containing at least 50 g of carbohydrate showed no significant changes in either T3 or rT3 concentration. The decline in serum T3 during the no-carbohydrate diet correlated significantly with blood glucose and ketones but there was no correlation with insulin or glucagon. We conclude that dietary carbohydrate is an important regulatory factor in T3 production in man. In contrast, rT3 concentration is not significantly affected by changes in dietary carbohydrate. Our data suggest that the rise in serum rT3 during starvation may be related to more severe caloric restriction than that caused by the 800 kcal diet.

Publication Types:

* Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.


PMID: 1249190 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Quote:
4: J Endocrinol Invest. 1983 Apr;6(2):81-9.
Related Articles, Links

Relationships between iodothyronine peripheral metabolism and ketone bodies during hypocaloric dietary manipulations.

Pasquali R, Baraldi G, Biso P, Pasqui F, Mattioli L, Capelli M, Callivá R, Spoto M, Melchionda N, Labò G.

Relationships between iodothyronine and metabolic substrate metabolism during undernutrition were evaluated in four normal subjects who fasted for 48h (Group I) and in four groups (II to V) of obese patients who underwent selective dietary manipulations: 360 calories [carbohydrate (CHO) 40 g/day]; 800 calories containing respectively 19 g/day - ketogenic - (K) and 112 g/day - non ketogenic - (NK) of CHO; and a step-diet programme (during which total calories were progressively reduced from 2500 to 500). Serum T3 levels decreased significantly and constantly during fasting, 360 and 800 K studies, and transiently during the 800 NK diet. During the step-diet programme, a significant fall was found only when 1250 K or less were given. Conversely, serum reverse T3 rose significantly and constantly during 360 and 800 K diets, while a transient increase was found during the 800 NK diet. During the step-diet programme reverse T3 rose only when 750 calories were given. Ketogenesis developed in all studies but one (800 NK), and in the step-diet programme significantly below the 1000 calorie step. Other substrate modifications in each study were also evaluated. Serum T3 levels showed a significant correlation with ketone bodies (KB) in all the ketogenic studies, while no correlation was found in non ketogenic study (800 NK). During the step-diet programme ketone bodies and iodothyronine modifications appeared to be related to the amount of calories. Based on these results, we suggest a relationship between the dietary-induced modifications of iodothyronine metabolism and the development of ketogenesis.

Publication Types:

* Comparative Study


PMID: 6863849 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Quote:
5: Metabolism. 1983 Jan;32(1):9-13.
Related Articles, Links

Adaptation to hypocaloric feeding: physiologic significance of the fall in serum T3 as measured by the pulse wave arrival time (QKd).

Osburne RC, Myers EA, Rodbard D, Burman KD, Georges LP, O'Brian JT.

We have investigated the physiologic significance of the decline in serum triiodothyronine (T3) occurring during hypocaloric feeding by measurement of changes in cardiovascular function. The QKd interval, the interval between the Q wave of the electrocardiogram and the onset of Korotkoff sounds at diastolic pressure at the brachial artery, is the sum of the preejection period and pulsetransmission time, and has proven to be a sensitive and effective measure of the effect of thyroid hormones on the cardiovascular system. Fifteen euthyroid obese volunteers underwent successive 2 wk periods of hypocaloric feeding (200-400 calories per day) interspersed with periods of at least 2 wk of re-feeding on a weight-maintaining diet (1500 calories). In a later phase subjects received oral supplementation of triiodothyronine (T3) in addition to the diet to prevent the fall in serum T3. In the last study phase, subjects on the diet received supplementation with oral thyroxine (T4), which prevented the fall in serum T3 and resulted in a slight increase in serum T4. During the first 2 wk period of hypocaloric feeding, there was a statistically significant increase in QKd, and a decrease in pulse rate, compatible with a hypothyroid state relative to initial measurements. When oral T3 supplementation was given, the rise in QKd and fall in pulse rate were prevented. Likewise, with oral T4 supplementation, the changes in QKd and pulse were prevented. Thus, the fall in serum T3 occurring during hypocaloric feeding is associated with changes in the cardiovascular system which are qualitatively similar to those observed during hypothyroidism. The present data, taken with other data in the literature, suggest that the decline in serum T3 during hypocaloric feeding may be an adaptive mechanism to conserve energy during caloric deprivation.

Publication Types:

* Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't


PMID: 6848901 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
By the way, getting away from the LC question, the last study is why I like JUDDD. All hypocaloric diets lead to some fall in T3, so having a refeed every other day seems to help counterbalance that (I've posted a study here before that shows ADF is better than every day dieting in preventing the BMR slow down).

While writing this, I came across this review that came out last year:

Chemistry and Biology in the Biosynthesis and Action of Thyroid Hormones

It's pretty dense but appears to be whatever you want to know about the thyroid based on the latest science (though no mention of not needing T3 if you don't eat carbs). I found a little simpler Powerpoint from Cal State that appears to be based on it.

FWIW, the Powerpoint breaks it down like this:
Quote:
Other Factors Regulating Thyroid Hormone Levels

Diet: a high carbohydrate diet increases T3 levels, resulting in increased metabolic rate (diet-induced thermogenesis).

Low carbohydrate diets decrease T3 levels, resulting in decreased metabolic rate.

Cold Stress: increases T3 levels in other animals, but not in humans.

Other stresses: increased or decreased?

Any condition that increases body energy requirements (e.g., pregnancy, prolonged cold) stimulates hypothalamus  TRH  TSH (Pit)
and

Quote:
Actions of Thyroid Hormones

Thyroid hormones are essential for normal growth of tissues, including the nervous system.

Lack of thyroid hormone during development results in short stature and mental deficits (cretinism).

Thyroid hormone stimulates basal metabolic rate.
Sorry to anyone that actually made it this far. I am not really interested in getting into an argument with a diet true believer on the internet. I do believe it's important to look at all sides when doing something that can affect your health. People need to get out of the echo chamber surrounding their WOE and look at it with clear eyes, IMO. I personally try to read as much as I can negative to short term fasting for that reason (nothing too bad so far) after learning my lesson with VLC.
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:52 PM   #78
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Totally changing the subject, I recently came across some Twinings Spiced Apple Chai black tea (in bags). This stuff is amazing. It's black tea with apple, cinnamon, cardamon, cloves and ginger. I usually put milk in black tea but this didn't need it so good for DDs. Unfortunately, it looks like it probably a seasonal item so I will have to wait 'til next year to buy a pallet of it.
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:07 PM   #79
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I enjoyed reading everyone's replies today. Thanks for reminding me Frosty that this is a LC forum...lol. I do think LC works very well. When I go back to eating normally, which for me is not a carbfest, just the odd thing that isn't LC, the weight starts to rise for me. I lost 12 pounds on WW years ago, but was really hungry all the time. I guess I am lucky in that I never had more than 20 or so pounds to lose, and lost it being very diligent on LC. I just found a few years ago I could cheat here and there, and not see weight gain, but I can no longer do that. I truly believe that it's not all about calories, and yet JUDDD has me restricting calories I never would have before, and seeing results. I agree that we each have to find what works for us.

I found the comparison I read somewhere very interesting: about WW vs JUDDD, that people on JUDDD lost more weight, even if you averaged the calories over the week, than people on WW eating basically the same amount.

Slowsure, you have done amazingly well and must be tiny at 100 pounds!

Vlo, I feel as you do, I will probably bounce around to find what works best for ME, you definitely have found what does for you, and should be proud of that.

Leo, what you wrote was interesting about the T3. Our family has a lot of thyroid issues, I have never had any that I am aware of, and rarely see a doctor, so I have never had mine checked. Glad to hear what your doctor said.Congrats on the accomplishments you have made

Frosty, is your house back to normal yet? My DD goes back on Sunday, I might be able to see the floor in her bedroom again....

Thanks Taramisu for the advice on dinner tonight. I just had some shredded veggies with balsamic vinegar to fill me up a little so I am not too tempted.

I guess seeing that some of you eat nothing at all on DDs caught me off guard. Maybe because I have only been doing it for a week I am still seeing results, but I definitely enjoy every one of the 370 calories I am allowed on DDs. I would pass out if I couldn't have them!

LC definitely lowered my appetite, but I have never been a huge eater, so it was just disappointing to see pounds creeping on here and there if I didn't stick to it religiously, which as many of you have pointed out, is a WOE, not a diet. I guess JUDDD will allow me to feel like I'm cheating because I have trained myself to never have toast, rice, pasta (even though I only ever ate whole wheat versions of everything before anyway). I know, it is the "cheating" mentality that gets us where we don't want to be to begin with!

Off to make the hors d'oeuvres that I won't be eating at our friends' house tonight. Need to find a good DD JUDDD one, if there are any!

Thanks everyone for being so pleasant in your replies.
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:17 PM   #80
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Frosty, is your house back to normal yet? My DD goes back on Sunday, I might be able to see the floor in her bedroom again....
DS2 went back last Monday and DS1 yesterday, so it's getting there. There is still too much holiday stuff left over and our lights and tree is still up.

But other than that, yup - almost back to normal.

Part of it is that I am still feeling like crap. My wife had the flu over Christmas and I am probably getting it. Just what I need after being gone from work for almost two weeks.
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:22 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by HockeyMum View Post
I guess seeing that some of you eat nothing at all on DDs caught me off guard. Maybe because I have only been doing it for a week I am still seeing results, but I definitely enjoy every one of the 370 calories I am allowed on DDs. I would pass out if I couldn't have them!
I wouldn't have been able to do 0 calorie DDs at first, either. The first time I even tried to fast until dinnertime was very difficult (thought I was going to pass out and had to eat something at 4). Gradually it just became easier and easier and one day I tried fasting the full day and found it was not really a problem. I still tend to eat up to 500 cals on DDs, but when I really need a victory, a 0 cal DD does the trick. Amazing what the body adjusts to!

Sadly, it's amazing how quickly it reverts to old ways, too. My first DD after Christmas was rough!
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:22 PM   #82
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Sorry, Frosty, while I don't want to get into an argument, the studies you cite show only that T3 drops with limiting carbs, something that's a given. But none of those studies show that it's a problem for the person. In fact, the key is the statement that "The present data, taken with other data in the literature, suggest that the decline in serum T3 during hypocaloric feeding may be an adaptive mechanism to conserve energy during caloric deprivation."

There are other studies that show a similar drop in T3 in patients who are critically ill in ICU. At first, it was concerning but studies were done that showed when the patients recovered, their T3 level went higher, indicating that it was a similar 'adaptive mechanism' by the body--nothing negative at all.
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:34 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by FrostyBeav View Post
I'm glad it works for you Leo. However, you are an outlier in respect to the literature. My n=1 is different than your n=1, fwiw.

T3 is the basal metabolism rate regulator. T3 falls in any kind of hypocaloric situation but falls much more if carbs are very low. Do you have proof that you need lower T3 (and therefore a lower BMR) if you are LC (i.e. not diet blogs)? I see that kind of hand waving all over LC and vegan sites ("you don't need as much X if you don't eat Y"). It's the same exact way that vegans justify their chronically low protein intakes so I would be curious to see if there is actual proof. T3 is also used in fat metabolism so, by this logic, it would also fall on a very low fat diet and you don't see that, that I've been able to find.

Here's just a partial list of the studies I had (I'm supposed to be working so don't have time to dig out the newer ones):












By the way, getting away from the LC question, the last study is why I like JUDDD. All hypocaloric diets lead to some fall in T3, so having a refeed every other day seems to help counterbalance that (I've posted a study here before that shows ADF is better than every day dieting in preventing the BMR slow down).

While writing this, I came across this review that came out last year:

Chemistry and Biology in the Biosynthesis and Action of Thyroid Hormones

It's pretty dense but appears to be whatever you want to know about the thyroid based on the latest science (though no mention of not needing T3 if you don't eat carbs). I found a little simpler Powerpoint from Cal State that appears to be based on it.

FWIW, the Powerpoint breaks it down like this:


and



Sorry to anyone that actually made it this far. I am not really interested in getting into an argument with a diet true believer on the internet. I do believe it's important to look at all sides when doing something that can affect your health. People need to get out of the echo chamber surrounding their WOE and look at it with clear eyes, IMO. I personally try to read as much as I can negative to short term fasting for that reason (nothing too bad so far) after learning my lesson with VLC.
I don't mean to hijack your thread since I don't post here often, but I wanted to say my experience mirrors Frostys. Tanked thyroid and adrenals, chronic drying of mucous membranes. My endocrinologist told me I absolutely had to reintroduce carbs. Not refined ones, but you know what I mean. When I re-introduced safe starches, my body temp went from always low around 97 to 98-99. I feel much better and sleep better, but that's just my n=1.
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:38 PM   #84
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The studies show that the reduced T3 is linked to reduced metabolic rate and that T3 dropped more with VLC. I guess it's up to the reader to decide if that's a problem or not, especially considering the one study that showed MR did not drop with lower calories until CHO dropped below 120g/day. If people want to ignore that or hand wave it away, that's their choice. They should be aware of it though and not have it called "a myth". It's a real effect that is mentioned in the literature.

By the way, I think it's dangerous to cite your experience with Hashimoto's and paint all forms of hypothyroid with that brush. Hashimoto's is an autoimmune disease and there is some evidence that losing weight helps with it. That isn't necessarily true with other forms of hypothyroidism. I had the antibodies tests so know I don't have Hashimoto's so need to treat it differently.
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Old 01-05-2017, 01:48 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Vlo1125 View Post
you questioned if keto would slow your metabolism, and I think everything I've read points to the opposite.
In all honestly, this has been my experience: I have and have always had great energy fasting and doing <20 carbs/day.

However, this seems to directly contradict Dr. Johnson's theory that JUDDD works because it does not allow your metabolism to slow (which is my take-home message for the biggest benefit of EOD modified fasting). His theory implies that fasting for 2, 3, or 4+ days on end will result in the body going into conservation mode. Yesno? Having water-fasted for more than two weeks on multiple occasions in my youth, I can confirm that I did slow down over time (something that _never_ happend doing Atkins).
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Old 01-05-2017, 02:44 PM   #86
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For me, I hit the wall at day 3 doing a water fast. This is coincidentally about how long it takes to completely deplete your liver glycogen, so that may have something to do with it. I never "ketoadapted" either when doing LC and usually felt tired the entire time. I think it's completely up to the individual. Some people just seem to do well on VLC and some don't.

It seems that the liver glycogen levels are what tells the body if you are "starving" or not and some people are just better at scrounging glycogen from protein and other places in the body to keep that topped up while others are walking around completely depleted. I personally struggled with that and even eating a bunch of protein didn't seem to help.
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Old 01-05-2017, 03:18 PM   #87
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Interesting stuff indeed! I have seen lots of people claim that LC has tanked their thyriods but never really given it much thought, I have no thyroid to tank! So I'll leave it to the more informed to speculate on that one! I like you ,Leo ,have an autoimmune disease , Graves' disease which all recent studies are pointing to being caused by leaky gut/ gluten intolerance etc. i had mine removed 3.5 years ago which I will always regret because I wish I would've tried natural or holistic methods first. But that was back when I was a good little girl who did as she was told and didn't question anything. Sigh, you live an learn. At the end of the day my thyriod function is regulated by synthetic hormones so nothing I do diet wise will change that.

Which makes me wonder if I even have to worry about any diet slowing down or speeding up my metabolism.......mind blown!


Portia- I can see extended fasts causing conservation mode but Idk doesn't fung advocate longer fasts? I think he's a big LC advocate as well too. To me the marriage Juddd and LC seems right and natural, like peanut butter and jelly!

Tara- ooofh! That first dd back was a crash and burn for me! It's tough to return it after some time off for sure!

Hockey mom- like Tara said zero calorie dd's is something you can work your way down to but are not necessary to succeed with juddd. I did 500 for the longest but it got harder and harder for me to stop eating after I start so doing no food dd's ( still have 100 calories of cream in my coffee)helped me immensely. For now just follow your calorie suggested by the calculator and you'll do great!

My LC chicken cordon bleu was so good, way better than I was expecting it to be! what I thought was neat is you blend steamed cauliflower in the cream Sauce and you can't even taste it.
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Old 01-05-2017, 05:48 PM   #88
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"I bought into the whole "insulin is evil" stuff and went VLCarb for over a year and nuked my thyroid in the process"

That is a very drastic statement and one that I hope people who need to do LC take very lightly. I have read a few books and as many articles as I could find about LC. I also know a few people who have done it for years (used to think they were crazy) and I have never seen anything stating LC would 'nuke' your thyroid. YMMV
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:07 PM   #89
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"I bought into the whole "insulin is evil" stuff and went VLCarb for over a year and nuked my thyroid in the process"

That is a very drastic statement and one that I hope people who need to do LC take very lightly. I have read a few books and as many articles as I could find about LC. I also know a few people who have done it for years (used to think they were crazy) and I have never seen anything stating LC would 'nuke' your thyroid. YMMV
An interesting thing that happens on diet boards is that when people have problems, they tend to just leave instead of hanging around to declare their problems. That's because they are usually talked down to by true believers who tell them that they are doing the doing the diet wrong, or they need to add some obscure supplement or they are lying because they are haters or something like that. Anything but that the diet itself did something to them. Therefore, if you primarily hang around forums catering to those diets, you aren't going to hear about problems with them.

However, hang around forums where people that left those diet forums go and you will see a lot of people that had similar problems. That's how I narrowed down what happened to me after being on an extremely low carb diet for a year. I was losing weight like crazy until one day, I wasn't. I was eating the same as I had but suddenly I was cold all of the time and became extremely tired all of the time. I started regaining weight even though - again - I had changed nothing in the way I was eating. I got kicked out of the low carb group I was with because, obviously, I was doing the diet wrong or something, even though I wasn't. True believers don't like their beliefs challenged.

After floundering around for a while (and regaining the weight I had lost plus more), I started to really research what was going on. I found a group of ex-VLCers and a lot of them had thyroid issues. I ended up going in to the doctor and getting tested and found I was pretty low (low testosterone, too, which was also contributing to the exhaustion I constantly felt). I've been on hormone replacement since 2015. My numbers are up but I still don't feel back to normal yet and still haven't regained my energy, though it is maybe getting better. I am hopeful in someday regaining full normalization but I am almost 53, so who knows.

Again, I am mentioning it in regards to older people going very low carb. If you are younger or don't go below the 50g/day threshold (or do regular refeeds or eat a ton of protein), there is pretty much no chance of issues.

Unfortunately, for me, having a happy thyroid and losing weight are usually brought on by mutually exclusive methods. I actually lose best by eating a near no fat diet (like McDougall's) but meh - who wants to eat like that all of the time? So here I am with JUDDD.
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Old 01-06-2017, 04:17 AM   #90
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Many, many thanks to Frosty and Leo for the excellent discussion of thyroid and metabolism.

That we debate the science at all is I think the biggest clue that our excellent scientists of 2017 (Happy New Year!) do not yet fully understand or always have the ability to accurately prescribe a comprehensive weight management strategy. I see the science (if I may call it that) of weight management as being in its pre-Copernican phase. I.e., we have lots of incredibly accurate information, and the topic is being studied by mainly dedicated scientists (and is being abused by a significant number of charlatans who claim that their way is the only way), but we're missing something key.

Frosty, I was curious about one line from one of your sources: "Diet: a high carbohydrate diet increases T3 levels, resulting in increased metabolic rate (diet-induced thermogenesis)." I have no doubt that it is scientifically proven that a hi carb diet increases T3, but doesn't the conclusion contradict the equally scientifically proven fact that it is a hi protein diet that increases thermogenesis?

And btw, Frosty, I miss seeing your charts.

Loving everybody's input here. Great links; high level of chat; and just the right amount of zen. Because as Slow would say, life itself gets a little more zen the longer you keep at it.
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