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Old 01-08-2017, 03:04 AM   #1
Mimosa23
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My missing link for fat loss...

So I have been tweaking and fine tuning my WOE for years and have found intermittent fasting to be a key ingredients for my success of late.

Dr Fung's research and books have been a huge help for me in the last 6 months, and have finally helped me to get some ongoing success.

But as with all things, I tend to lose love for the principle and hope for something new!
This is just my stupid brain playing tricks on me though!

Now even though I am getting closer to my goal, I am still a way off and still need to get rid of some annoying persistent fat!

With the fasting I noticed that the day before fasting I was subconsciously adding more fat to my food, to compensate for the day of no food that was to come. Now this is totally counterproductive, because my body was using the energy from the fat through diet instead of the energy from fat on my body!

BIG LIGHTBULB MOMENT!!!!!!

So in order to utilise body fat for fuel, we need to eat less dietary fat! I am now still eating a LCHF diet, but instead of eating about 140-150 grams of fat give or take a day, I try to keep my fats to a maximum of about 120 grams, and leave it up to my body (that miracle of nature that does work) to utilise the rest of my body fat to provide me with the energy for the day.

WOW! I just kicked up my inchloss a notch or two and in the past 5 days of doing so, even whilst just recovered from norovirus and TOM is here, I lost one whole inch from my waist!

I was eating fat to maintenance levels, and not for weightloss. All other macros I kept the same. (50-77 grams protein and under 20 grams total carbs) I have not felt hungrier or more deprived, and energy has been good.

Just my experience, and maybe something for others to consider if you are not losing inches or weight but still have a way to go... I know it is just 5 days, but I will continue this for a bit to see if 30 days make a difference. I will get back to you then!

xxx
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Old 01-08-2017, 04:42 AM   #2
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Thanks for sharing your experience, Mimosa.
There is a point at which the high fat part of LCHF becomes too much fat.
Even with standard LC, Atkins said in one of his book that you can't overindulge with it. Good thing that you know your macros. Very impressive!
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Old 01-08-2017, 04:58 AM   #3
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I love fat, LOL! Good thing is that I can have quite a bit of it once I get to my goal, LOL!

I hoped that by sharing something quite obvious but so easily forgotten, that I can maybe help one or two others who are frustrated or can't see the trees through the forest! Xxx
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:02 AM   #4
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I remember a guy to used to post -- his impressive loss got stalled. Long story short, once he started measuring the HWC he put in his coffee, and not just pouring some in the cup, this weight loss continued and he reached his goal is a very short while. He was putting in a LOT and that extra fat tripped him up.
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:19 AM   #5
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Exactly! And it is so easy to just add a bit extra here and there and before you know it, it adds up to quite a lot! Without really noticing a difference in fullness or flavour as well! So I am now back to measuring and weighing just to get myself back to basics. I really want to get off the last 27 pounds and maintain well, so this is my aim for this year. Losing that alertness for me is fatal. I tend to add a bit of cheese here, an extra bit of butter there, a lug of olive oil more on my salads... Et voila, I am eating way more than I actually NEED.

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Old 01-09-2017, 11:57 AM   #6
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Interesting. I have been hearing this on a lot of groups lately, first we must use our onboard pantry! Dr. Westman says that and I think Volek and Phinney say savor not slather the extra fat added to our lc diet. Once we are at goal like you said we can have more fat.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:12 AM   #7
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I don't believe that it is an either or situation. I think we use both stored body fat and dietary fat. If there is no dietary fat available, then it seems logical that stored body fat would be used. I get confused when I consider this and the insulin response element.

How I understand this is that insulin will block stored fat from being freed up (along with storing dietary fat). This takes me back to the question of eating windows. It seems logical that if a person is not taking in any food for periods of time, that body fat should be utilized. This doesn't appear to happen for me or not much.

Why? It has to be hormonal. I have heard Dr. Phinney say 2 contradictory things. One is that no one should eat less than 1200 calories per day. Okay. On the heals of that he said that if a person has their carbs and protein dialed in correctly, and not losing weight, they need to dial back their dietary fat. Okay but this would take me well below the barely meeting the 1200 cal per day - particularly on I.F. days..... I have zero faith in calorie counting as a weight loss method.

I know for sure I am not the only one - in fact, I think it is more common than not for women post menopausal.

I am hoping this will work for you and am encouraging you to go for it.
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Old 01-10-2017, 07:36 AM   #8
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Dietary fat is sorta like the fuse string, and body fat is the dynamite.
That is one way to analogize it. I feel miserable and low energy sometimes. Fat - even a tiny, 1/4 teaspoon or even less if its a good solid fat like butter or coconut oil I take a tiny morsel and roll it around in my mouth, and I sometimes get "jump started" for hours and hours if I am actively doing things then. So my body seems to need a bit of a jump start. Nowadays those active windows are getting shorter, the morsel has to get bigger and the peak energy expenditure in the "active" stage also cant be that high. When I was 200-190 lbs, tiny bit of butter @ 7-8 am would keep me working all day. Now - 1-2 hrs. But I also am under 150 (officially underweight).

That's something I understand as the underlying mechanism of our fat metabolism and energy expenditure.

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Old 01-10-2017, 07:54 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clackley View Post
I don't believe that it is an either or situation. I think we use both stored body fat and dietary fat. If there is no dietary fat available, then it seems logical that stored body fat would be used. I get confused when I consider this and the insulin response element.

How I understand this is that insulin will block stored fat from being freed up (along with storing dietary fat). This takes me back to the question of eating windows. It seems logical that if a person is not taking in any food for periods of time, that body fat should be utilized. This doesn't appear to happen for me or not much.

Why? It has to be hormonal. I have heard Dr. Phinney say 2 contradictory things. One is that no one should eat less than 1200 calories per day. Okay. On the heals of that he said that if a person has their carbs and protein dialed in correctly, and not losing weight, they need to dial back their dietary fat. Okay but this would take me well below the barely meeting the 1200 cal per day - particularly on I.F. days..... I have zero faith in calorie counting as a weight loss method.

I know for sure I am not the only one - in fact, I think it is more common than not for women post menopausal.

I am hoping this will work for you and am encouraging you to go for it.
Hi Cathy! I am certainly one of those people who like to eat their food as fatty as possible, and I think the amounts that I was consuming were just too much. It certainly is nice to know that I can maintain whilst eating lots of nice fatty things, but I can't really lose consistently when I eat as much fat as I did. I am still eating high fat, and if I look at my macro percentages my fat consumption still lies at around 70-78 percent, so not too bad. I am not sure what is going on for you, but yes it could definitely be hormonal.

Considering that I am still going to have three tablespoons of mayo (and staying below my new maximum of fat grams) on my shredded chicken tonight, I guess I am still getting some fat in, LOL! But with no cheese, creme fraiche and all these extras it certainly is lower fat for me than usual. I could NEVER eat low fat, this makes me tremendously unhappy. I would rather stay chubby than forgo completely on dietary fat, LOL!

Calorie counting as such confuses me too. I am only planning one meal tomorrow, and even if I tried I could not eat 1200 calories in one sitting if I stick to my macro grams. I would have to eat so much volume, I would burst! And Phinney says one thing, but then Maria Emmerich says another, and so forth and so on. If you are happy with the way you are feeling, your health is good, you are on the path that you want to be, I think you are doing a great job for yourself!

I will never be skinny skinny, firstly because I enjoy eating, secondly, I enjoy eating and thirdly, I am too old for skinny skinny to look good anymore, LOL! But hopefully with reducing my dietary fat and IF I will achieve my sexy in my 40's figure, LOL!
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:55 AM   #10
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Thanks for your kind thoughts. I do understand what you are saying about reducing over all fat and the complications of doing I.F.. I wonder if it would be more accurate to think that a person should not eat below 1200 on a regular basis.

I know you have an upcoming wedding and would like to look good and feel good but if your avi is any indication of where you are now ~ well you have achieved both!!
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Old 01-11-2017, 03:42 AM   #11
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Thanks for the compliments, Cathy! Unfortunately, my hips don't lie, LOL! I carry my weight below my waist and above my knees. So my head and shoulders look fab, and my ankles look pretty darn cute too, it's in between where I am having trouble, LOL! That bit always goes last...
I am also making sure I have one higher protein/fat day a week to keep my body guessing. So today I am adding a bit extra of everything, and I may even have some cheese just because I can!
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:25 AM   #12
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Phinney's book seemed to be written more for men, if my memory serves.
1200 cals seems to me to be one of those sweeping generalizations, true most of the time but not all of the time.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:03 AM   #13
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The info came from an interview and it was specifically about women and weight loss and the 1200 calories was a minimum and yes, I believe he meant on a regular basis. If a person were to be using intermittent fasting, that 1200 wouldn't apply on those days I am thinking.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:40 AM   #14
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I just looked at my week and the days where I have eaten TMAD I am between 1200 and 1400 cals and the days that I ate OMAD I was under 1000. Then I didn't eat for a whole day, and today with my restaurant lunch (I dread to think what that adds up to precisely but I am guessing) I probably will be closer to 1800-2000 cals. It all balances out. And I have to say, that there is NO WAY I could eat 1200 cals in one sitting without exaggerating on fats. And like I said, that obviously does not work for me and the goals that I have. I have found that for me it is more important to get my macros into a minimum and maximum gram range, more so than making sure there is a certain number of calories that I need to consume.

To be honest, I have found now that there is a whole new revival on fasting thanks to Dr Fung, that Dr Phinney has been shouting louder and louder against fasting. Everybody has their own agenda. And here, everybody needs to figure out what works for them. It is great to share and read about experiences, this way we can help and support eachother in figuring out what works for each individual. But to put a general number on certain things and make this seem like the golden rule for everyone is in my opinion just nonsense. This has never been useful.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:34 AM   #15
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I wasn't aware that Dr. Phinney was opposed to fasting!! What is his stance? I personally think fasting is the way to go for the insulin resistant. Dr. Fung makes very good and compelling arguments for it.

I know that don't meet 1000 calories on some days I do OMAD. I don't try to meet any calorie goal but rather eat a normal meal that is keto and no snacks. I still keep carbs below 20g total and protein not exceeding 60g but honestly, those 2 things are below my usual goals and this is consistently on OMAD days. Dr. Fung talks about the calorie myth. I agree with him on that theory as well.

This has not been brought up but I have been doing lots of fasting since early March (10 months) and if it were true that muscle wasting happens with fasting (subsequent low protein), I would have noticed by now and it simply is not happening.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:49 AM   #16
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I am a member at a website of a swedish doctor and in some of the latest videos from dr Phinney, he is not a fan of any fasting longer than 24 hours. This is what was written as an introduction to the latest video: ' Dr. Phinney has a slightly more skeptical perspective on fasting than some other experts. Specifically, he worries about the results of extended fasting (more than 24 hours) on protein loss and the risk of re-feeding syndrome.'

Some of the other stuff from him also shows that he is opposed to fasting and worries about muscle wasting.

Honestly, I think every dr with a book or products out there is going to push their own agenda. Now their agendas are not necessarily good or bad, in my opinion they can work or they don't for you. Simple.

Personally, thanks to dr Fung I have found what works for me and I tend to be in his camp on the fasting views and on the non-issue of muscle wasting. But that is just my experience and opinion. If I would follow the recommendations of dr Phinney for protein, I would already run into trouble, because it is just too much for me.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:07 AM   #17
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I didn't know that about Dr. Phinney either. A quick googling shows he believes it causes muscle loss- even in a short as 24 hours.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:27 AM   #18
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Yup, I agree that muscle wasting is not an issue for me and I have also had success with I.F. where none has come with other things.
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:11 AM   #19
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Muscle loss and re-feeding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimosa23 View Post
Specifically, he worries about the results of extended fasting (more than 24 hours) on protein loss and the risk of re-feeding syndrome.'

Some of the other stuff from him also shows that he is opposed to fasting and worries about muscle wasting.
.
That re-feeding syndrome - LOL, depends on what you re-feed yourself with. I've eaten huge meals and never gained anything after and never had any ill effects. I've also eaten some what less food and got sick and ruined my weight loss trajectory for days to come.
I am a bit sensitive to the order of what I eat. Whatever it is, Fat comes first, carbs come @ the end. I like to start with fat and protein (meat) fat and fiber - nuts (not much needed here) and finish with fat and carbs (dessert). I screw that order up by eating sweet potato first and there goes my day.

Muscle wasting - complete myth. I thought I lost a bit, but I was gauging myself with a task where my body weight is the counter weight to the lift I was doing - a heavy speaker I was not able to lift as easily, but I was 50 lbs under and you lean back and use your own body as a counter weight, that meant I had to lean back further, and the angle of my hands changed and got me less of a straight up lift.

The key is, the longer term fasts have to be broken with Keto friendly meals for the least side effects after. My Nov 24th thanksgiving meal, I woke up the next day feeling so good. The Dec 14th one, utter misery, even when finishing up my meal and was pretty bad for an hour, and continued bad through that week, I ended up eating on 18th, 20th and 21st (all 3 were good meals but not big enough maybe) and broke that trend only around 27th or 28th, because my 26 meal was bigger but terrible.

Thanks.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:59 AM   #20
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So yesterday evening after a week of lower numbers I ate a high fat meal, and today the start of my fast is certainly easier! I am trying for 72 hours, but this depends on my plans for the weekend. Apparently we are going to have a snowstorm and all sorts of ugly weather, so it would be great to fast, I am not going anywhere anyway! I am feeling lighter and less flabby somehow, but I will measure next week to see if this lower fat thing is actually working the way I want it to work!

xxx
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Old 03-01-2017, 01:36 PM   #21
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Dr Phinney says he is wary of fasting, because of muscle loss. He has said on numerous occasions that fasts that are less than 24 hours probably aren't an issue. All the studies he refers to that he states give him concerns about fasting from a scientific perspective, are 3 days fasts and longer. He also, clearly believes that a "well designed ketogenic diet" should be sufficient. However, my one criticism is, Volek and Phinney don't often differentiate between the differences in how women's bodies respond, compared to mens bodies. They are massive evolutionary adaptations to take into account here IMO.

My opinion is if you are eating sufficient protein for your LBM, and have excessive fat stores, in general, you are NOT going to lose muscle mass in a state of nutritional ketosis.

If you are eating sufficient protein, it's not even possible to truly "fast" because protein has 4 calories per gram. So lets say your body requires 50 grams of protein per day, that's 200 calories (and a lot of people require more protein than that) and then you add your 20 grams of carbohydrate, another 80 calories. Now how you would get 50 grams of isolated protein without fat is tricky, unless you are having something like whey protein (which causes massive insulin spikes on the insulin index FYI) so in all likelihood, you would be taking in notable fat grams along with your protein. At a guess, based on the amount of fat in most protein sources, add an extra 500 calories minimum (roughly 50grams of fat at 9 calories each gram) so even on a fast where you are maintaining adequate protein but still otherwise following the nutritional ketosis guidelines, you will never be actually fasting at 780 calories per day (all that is still very low obvs). The studies Phinney refers to don't include adequate daily protein, so it's not good science to make the comparison.

When people ask Phinney during question time about IM (as they always seem to do) he never specifies the sort of fast, or the parameters. Whereas, most people doing IM along side low carb, are only fasting for 16-18 hours over a 24 hour period, they are maintaining adequate protein intake and that is not going to be an issue. He is usually referring to actual fasting, over 3 or more days.

The fact that it may otherwise trigger your BMR to reduce is another matter entirely however, especially if you are a woman. Many studies have shown that large calorie deficits, cause a woman's body to respond by slowing down her metabolism, especially if an extra metabolic stress, like cardio, is also added. So in terms of science, a sensible response might be to not to IM every day. And to alternate IM with higher calorie days.
Or even maintenance calorie days. And for instance, timing exercise to be on your higher calorie days.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:45 PM   #22
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According to Dr. Fung, metabolism reduction occurs if calories are low, and insulin remains high.So, your typical low fat, high carb, low calorie diet will slow metabolism, but total fasting will not. Total fasting will not slow metabolism (he cites studies that even show an increase) because insulin drops. When little insulin is present, fat can flow freely from the cells and there is plenty of energy available- no need to reduce metabolism.

I think Dr. Fung would also say a good LC diet would be enough too, if it were not for YEARS worth of damage many people suffer from a lifetime of a poor diet.
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Old 03-01-2017, 11:44 PM   #23
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I am experiencing this! I find my body responds positively to fasting, I don't get cold anymore when I fast either, and only feel cold on those days when I am eating and I don't eat enough. When I fast, none of the metabolic downturn...

I think there is still a lot to be discovered, and I am more inclined to believe that the body needs times of no feeding to heal. How long that time is depends on the amount of healing the body needs to do. I am now in my second day of a longer fast, aiming for 7 days, and with the blessing of my GP!

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Old 03-02-2017, 06:25 AM   #24
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Feeling warm when fasting may or may not be a good thing. I've read both sides of that story.
If your body is warm due to blood flow to the perimeter instead of around the important organs due to a stress hormone - that could be bad.
If its just pumping blood around everything and you're not making lots of stress hormones, that is good.
I felt fine through the beginning of the fasts but as I got to the low double digits for body fat - I started feeling cold. I dropped to the 6-7 range via exercise and I stopped feeling as cold, and now that I am back in the mid teens I seem to have cold again, but eating everyday definitely helps.

I cant wait to be done with eating tonight and get another round in till the 11th. Hopefully it will be easy now that I have eaten up nicely a few weeks, and I have 15-18 lb to lose atleast.

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Old 03-02-2017, 07:13 AM   #25
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Eh... I didn't say I felt warm, I said I didn't feel cold...
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:10 AM   #26
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According to Dr. Fung, metabolism reduction occurs if calories are low, and insulin remains high.So, your typical low fat, high carb, low calorie diet will slow metabolism, but total fasting will not. Total fasting will not slow metabolism (he cites studies that even show an increase) because insulin drops. When little insulin is present, fat can flow freely from the cells and there is plenty of energy available- no need to reduce metabolism.
Gina, this is the part I have the hardest time grasping, the difference between low calorie and not eating at all. You explained it in a way I understand. It's all about the insulin.
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Old 03-02-2017, 10:08 AM   #27
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Gina, this is the part I have the hardest time grasping, the difference between low calorie and not eating at all. You explained it in a way I understand. It's all about the insulin.
I'm glad this helped. An analogy he uses is the money in your wallet vs in your bank account. Say you have $100 in your wallet and thousands in your bank, but you know you can't get to the bank to take any out. How are you going to spend that $100? Probably very carefully- reduce spending, stay home, save where ever you can.

But if you have $100 in your wallet and know you can easily get as much money as you want from the bank, you will spend more freely- buy coffee, fill your car up with gas, see a movie, go to lunch.

Insulin is what keeps your body from "going to the bank" to get more energy, so it has to conserve. Fat has evolved over millions of years as a energy storage/release mechanism. It makes no sense for the body to have this finely developed system and then not use it. If you don't have enough food, it makes no sense to become weak, cold and lethargic. That's a good way to never kill a mammoth and die. We aren't meant to have the insulin levels we have now though. Insulin is there to store fat in times of plenty. It is supposed to be low when food is low, but it isn't with our current diet.
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Old 03-05-2017, 01:25 PM   #28
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Fat has evolved over millions of years as a energy storage/release mechanism. It makes no sense for the body to have this finely developed system and then not use it. If you don't have enough food, it makes no sense to become weak, cold and lethargic. That's a good way to never kill a mammoth and die. We aren't meant to have the insulin levels we have now though. Insulin is there to store fat in times of plenty. It is supposed to be low when food is low, but it isn't with our current diet.
While I agree with you in general. I have to disagree with the assumption that "it makes no sense" for the body not to use stored fat.

Actually, the opposite could be true for most of a woman's life.

Fat storage is a species survival mechanism for women. Women needed to survive because they grow the babies, they breast feed them and raise them till they can be independent. Men are not strictly needed beyond their semen delivery but for the species to survive, women needed to be able to survive food shortages. Plus one man could repopulate and entire tribe if the women survive.
Many suggested, this is why women and men have evolved such massively different reactions to fat loss. Women's bodies are amazingly efficient at surviving famine, and study after study (as well as, sadly, real life situations) that women survive famine far better than men. Women's bodies have been shown to preserve fat, even in preference to muscle at times. Women's metabolism's slow down much more quickly and effectively than men's when experiencing caloric deficit, much more readily lay down fat and much LESS readily mobilise fat. The only time that a woman's body stops fighting as hard to maintain its fat stories is during pregnancy and whilst breast feeding. Which makes sense, because this is the period of time that the fat stores were evolved to provide for. Women also require a much higher body fat percentage to maintain a healthy reproductive system and preserve bone density than men.

Sooooo actually, it makes a lot of sense that women might not easily and readily utilise their fat reserves outside of pregnancy and breast feeding. Especially in the context that these mechanisms evolved when food shortages were a real and regular occurrence and because of seasonal variations in food, a woman would stock up her fat stores during spring, summer and autumn year on year, and then her body would use these vary sparingly so that she could maintain pregnancies over winter, breast feed for some years after the baby was born, and continue to hunt/gather food for the growing child/ren despite weather patterns, droughts, floods etc. The length of time a woman could survive for is massively significant for the survival of the species because of the dependence of human infants for survival for many years (unlike almost every other mammal that can walk, run, hunt, find food, etc very quickly after birth)

There's no way around it. Fasting for prolonged periods of times causes a woman's daily calorie burn reduce. If you look at the women specific studies this is what happens. Intermittent Fasting doesn't necessarily do this because the fasting is often not for prolonged periods of time and is interspersed with higher calorie days. Metabolism slow down and LBM loss always occurs within 24 hours if there has been insufficient protein consumption also. Luckily, IF is often adequate protein and less than 24 hours of fasting.

I would recommend the current and recent research of Anne Louckes. Her research has suggested that for women, what is most significant is energy availability and that any regular drops below this calculation contribute towards menstrual dysfunction, bone density and metabolism issues (thyroid, leptin, lutenizing hormone etc). Some have inferred from her research that there needs to be at least 2 days of calorie intake at maintenance levels, to optimise normal metabolise during fat loss over the long term weight loss period.
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Old 03-05-2017, 03:17 PM   #29
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There's no way around it. Fasting for prolonged periods of times causes a woman's daily calorie burn reduce. If you look at the women specific studies this is what happens. Intermittent Fasting doesn't necessarily do this because the fasting is often not for prolonged periods of time and is interspersed with higher calorie days. Metabolism slow down and LBM loss always occurs within 24 hours if there has been insufficient protein consumption also. Luckily, IF is often adequate protein and less than 24 hours of fasting.

I would recommend the current and recent research of Anne Louckes. Her research has suggested that for women, what is most significant is energy availability and that any regular drops below this calculation contribute towards menstrual dysfunction, bone density and metabolism issues (thyroid, leptin, lutenizing hormone etc). Some have inferred from her research that there needs to be at least 2 days of calorie intake at maintenance levels, to optimise normal metabolise during fat loss over the long term weight loss period.
This is the opposite of the research quoted by Dr. Fung about *fasting* when ample body fat is present. It does match what he says about low calorie dieting.

I looked up Anne Loucks, but a quick googling didn't turn up a whole lot. What I did see of her work was about reduced energy intake and increased energy expenditure. I found no mention of the macros of the reduced calorie diet, and if it was comprised in such a way to keep insulin high, then according to Dr. Fung, it would reduce metabolism.

What I read of her research also dealt with female atheletes, who, I would guess, probably don't have a high level of body fat to begin with.

Perhaps there is more that I didn't see. I do agree that women should be careful about things like this. Research is often done on men and the results are extrapolated to women when they shouldn't be.
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Old 03-06-2017, 06:44 AM   #30
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From my experience and the male perspective - The order you body prefers to use its reserves and its side effects is dependent on insulin level.

Good amount of fat reserves ~50lb+ in a 190lb man - and insulin of 5 or there abouts after a 5 day fast - no problem burning fat, no side effects no real reason to even worry about any other problem aside from a bit of electrolyte deficiency.

Low fat reserves ~20 lb or under in a now 150lb man and insulin of .8 after an 8 day fast - lots of problems and side effects. Periods of low energy, anger for no reason, electrolyte deficiency, feeling cold etc etc etc.

I believe up to 4 days your body spends more energy to help you hunt for food. But past that it goes into a more steady and sustain mode for 9 days or so. Beyond that is when it truly goes into conserve mode. I've run the whole cycle in a 20 day fast. I pretty much felt good all the way to day 14-15, at which point I felt terribly low energy and lethargic and sick but just day 14 and 15. Somehow day 16-20 were on par with days 4-13. Like some type of second energy source was found. This was all when I went from 160-150 or so.

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