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Old 09-07-2014, 11:36 AM   #1
SlowSure
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JUDDD and Your Life Have Their Own Schedule

JUDDD is at heart a schedule that allows you to reduce your food intake when looked at from the overview of a week.

That's all there is to it. There may be some genetic up regulation and down regulation as there is with foodstuffs and the timing of it but at a high level, it's about adapting your food intake to your energy expenditure in such a way that you can manipulate your weight and body composition to a level that is suited to your health and wellbeing.

We're human. We like to complicate things. So, JUDDD has to accept everything else that we project onto it.

I've got some additional ideas (that I'll post below). I'm sure other JBs have their own ideas - maybe sharing them will help new and established JBs make some decisions about how they implement JUDDD.
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Old 09-07-2014, 12:39 PM   #2
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Nancy's famous tagline sums up the essence of the duality of JUDDD:
Quote:
JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.
To some of us, this is freedom and we can work with it. My observation is that some people find this lack of restriction initially liberating and then overwhelming and I might comment on this in another post.

To me these topics seem related, so, apologies to anyone to whom this appears tangential.

JUDDD works because for those of us for whom it does work, it's a way of regularising our food/kcal intake over the period of a week/set time-scale. There may also be some health benefits from a substantial reduction in kcal intake on 1/2/3 days a week or ADF: there is some research that suggests this, more is needed to validate it across age groups, ethnic groups, for a variety of medical conditions.

JUDDD is less restrictive than other WOEs to some of us. As long as we're eating an amount of food that suits our present needs and we're eating the sort of foods that sustain our health or suit our medical needs, then JUDDD is sufficient.

You can see the number of current **radical weight loss maintainers on this board. Dawn, Carly, Cindy/Kissa, Carol and others. I don't think any of them excludes a food group/macronutrient. (I accept that I'm an outlier: I monitor my macronutrients to control migraine but I don't exclude or demonise foodstuffs.) Several of the maintainers have done this despite diagnosed metabolic disorders and, so far, they've mitigated the impact of these and are handling this well in maintenance.

These maintainers have been where and other JBs are. They achieved their goals by following JUDDD and being flexible enough to adapt when it was plainly necessary.

Plainly necessary, in my case, meant that I had been on a plateau where I lost and regained the same 2 lbs for a minimum of 6 weeks.

What does plainly necessary mean to other people (in the absence of a medical need)? How long do you see the same scale number/other measurement before you feel the need to tweak?

Do you feel the need to tweak because you want faster results? Or because you feel the process will not or does not work for you? Do you feel that weight/body composition change is something that you can tweak to fit your emotional needs or something that has its own rationale or timetable?

**Radical weight loss is loosely defined as in excess of 30lbs or >15% of your initial HW.
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Last edited by SlowSure; 09-07-2014 at 12:47 PM..
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Old 09-07-2014, 05:10 PM   #3
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Very interesting observation and summation, Slow! I had always thought stall to be = to "no movement in scale" but have come to realize your definition is more accurate. I have been oscillating between 172-168 for the past 3-4 months. I am also experiencing the "un-forgiveness" of the body and "teaching us a lesson" for not reigning in soon enough.

I had somehow started dreading the DD days and after vacations found it too difficult to get back into the swing of things. PH is a help but I do feel you can overeat potatoes too. It has not become a appetite suppressant for me as it did with you. Just proves that we can/do react differently to the same environment. Ultimately, I feel DH is right calories are like a bank balance!

Incidentally, DH was asking me how come I can do PH and yet not control my daily food intake like he does! He is one of those who can tell himself "this is not good for me, I don't need it"! And he eats to live not live to eat!
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:56 AM   #4
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So many of us are partnered with people who don't have similar experiences with food and weight maintenance

I think our food choices and responses to it are emphatically a YMMV issue even at different times in our own lives. Whatever it is that we eat, we need to establish what we can eat, and in appropriate quantities that don't trigger gut issues or endocrine responses that nudge us towards unhelpful food choices.

Looking at what is currently working for maintainers who post here regularly (I don't know enough about those such as Jodi, the redhead, stirlinggirl, and other maintainers), JUDDD is liveable because it doesn't involve food group deprivation or restrictions. Maybe it's possible that over the long term, it's possible to maintain one of these but for many of us it would consume a huge amount of energy to manage both and I'm not sure that that is wholly compatible with an active or involved family/social life (Leo41 is a notable example of someone who manages food choices and energy intake).

JUDDD's mechanism is a regular reduction in kcals. I think that over time we adapt this to food choices that we can live with in full knowledge that if we want something, we can have it, if we plan for it and are ready to accept all of the outcomes that the choice involves. Again, over time, it might happen that we re-prioritise our food choices in line with this.
X might be worth the risk of a headache x1 or x2 a year, but definitely not every week.
Fill in your own

Food choices can only take us so far, however. Maybe we need to be ready to accept that although our minds and emotions would prefer one timescale, it's the body that is the final arbiter of deciding when weight change happens for us and at what rate. (Medical necessity is a separate case.)

Sometimes, changing what we eat yields productive and useful changes but other times jumping from one very different plan to another makes it difficult to comment on which results belong to which variable/tweak. Which is why it's useful if we can commit to observing ourselves on a plateau for a while before tweaking.

We might be able to collaborate with our bodies rather than fight it by making particular food choices that work for it - but, stress, shame, lack of sleep, and a raft of negative emotions can undo almost anything.
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Old 09-08-2014, 02:12 AM   #5
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Hi,

I'm not really sure that JUDDD itself is just a reduction in calories. Many people lose weight on JUDDD who don't lose weight by restricting calories. I think it may have more to do with lower insulin on "fasting" days or other metabolic reasons - the body is complicated!
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:30 AM   #6
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Let's see....

I was already keto-adapted and weight loss stalled when I started JUDDD. I stayed on LCHF foods until appetite suppression was well established. Then I reintroduced carbs very gradually (and with no impact to weight loss and no carb-cravings). By 2.5 months into JUDDD I was eating whatever.

I did find, in the effort to allocate daily calories, I did push certain foods - mostly sweets - into the 'once in awhile' pile. But, if an opportunity for a really stellar dessert magically appeared - DD or UD - I thought about the impact to my goal and made individual, unemotional decisions. I lost, basically 2 pounds/week steady as a well-tuned clock.

Except for three stalls. I define a stall - for me - as 'no downward trend on the scale and no loss of inches for six full weeks'. Oh, there were several times the scale did not move but the inches did...and vice versa. But, I figured: I am making huge weight changes...maybe once in awhile my body needs time to make internal changes supportive of the weight I have lost. Be patient, give it time, I want the end result to be permanent and maybe not rushing will get me there.

So, after six weeks of no scale and no inches I started experimenting. Twice I found I had let my UD calories drop too low (one hint to that discovery: I lost a lot of NSVs during the stall). Upped my UD calories and weight loss resumed. The third stall was the 'last 12 pounds'. I did have to drop both DD and UD calories by about 100 at least two DDs and two UDs a week. Which was easy because appetite suppression was strong. That took me to goal - size 6 fit perfectly.

Maintenance was astonishingly easy. In fact, stopping weight loss was the difficulty. First I raised DD calories to about 900. Then I moved to 5:2. It really was like, having lost 50 pounds my body was not yet ready to call goal - it wanted to lose more.

I continued to eat anything. When diabetes raised it's ugly head, I returned to LCHF and lost another 15 pounds without trying. My body seemed pleased: it hit 110 and, finally, stabilized. I have pulled my DD calories down to JUDDD maintenance levels and eat many more calories on UDs...and rock gently between 110 and 112.

While I, personally believe there is more going on during fasting/low calorie days, I think defining JUDDD as "at heart a schedule that allows you to reduce your food intake when looked at from the overview of a week" is a great way to put it.

IF is not for everyone.

But it seems to work - for weight loss, for health improvements, for weight maintenance - for an astonishing number of people.
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I did not "lose" weight. I evicted it. It is gone and it ain't coming back!

JUDDD cares about calories. JUDDD does not care what you eat. Your body probably does.

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Old 09-08-2014, 07:06 AM   #7
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Thanks for this thread - I am learning more and more every day. What a wonderful surprise for me to go out of town this weekend - have 3 UDs in a row and come home to find out I had only gained .3 lbs - and I am seriously ready for my DD today!
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Old 09-08-2014, 08:43 AM   #8
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Good observations, Slow. I think you're right about being able to have full flexibility as to what to eat, allowing for our own bodies' tolerances and sensitivities. I know what my body feels best on, but I also have seen that I can lose eating quite a bit of "junk" as longa s calories are in line.

The best thing of all is the flexibility in terms of foods, timing special events, etc.
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Old 09-08-2014, 02:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by LoCarbGal View Post
Good observations, Slow. I think you're right about being able to have full flexibility as to what to eat, allowing for our own bodies' tolerances and sensitivities. I know what my body feels best on, but I also have seen that I can lose eating quite a bit of "junk" as longa s calories are in line.

The best thing of all is the flexibility in terms of foods, timing special events, etc.
This is huge for me. I tried and tried to get myself back to LC, but I have figured out I have an intolerance to eggs and dairy (on top of wheat that I have known about for years). In theory, LC should be fine with meat and green vegetables, but in practice it is just too limited for me without cheese, cream and the endless egg dishes LC is famous for.

With JUDDD I can add higher carb veggies, fruit, more nuts & nut butters, and the occasional GF bread or pasta. Much easier to live with, even though the DDs are strict. I'm still lower carb, but with a greater variety of foods than I would be able to lose on with straight low carb.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:09 PM   #10
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Great discussion, Slowsure. Thank you...
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Old 10-02-2014, 06:00 AM   #11
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This is horrendously long but I needed to write it somewhere in response to some questions I received after reporting that I'm now 105lbs and approx. 23-25% body fat (the body fat level is a projected estimate based on my last Dxa that won't be confirmed until the next scan in 2015).

I wanted to update this thread as I've just updated this one following today's weigh-in which is the first time that I've reached the bottom of my planned 105-110lbs range: http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/ju...l#post17051192

I've reached this range by following the JUDDD schedule: I've exceeded my kcal allowance on one DD while following this schedule.

I've experimented with several variations on WOE during this time with JUDDD. For the last 15months or so, I've settled into a modified ketogenic WOE as this helps me to control the migraines. I may need to modify my WOE again in the future as I'm sure that our needs change as our circumstances change.

I manage my food intake quite carefully but I don't track it assiduously. That is probably because I eat the same sorts of foods and food groups on a regular basis so have a reasonably good idea of how to eat to fit the needs of my WOE. It's unlikely that I'd take the risk of just 'winging' it with a completely unknown food item unless it was a very special set of circumstances.

Before I eat, I have a rough idea of what I'm going to eat and how much. I have a good idea of the portion sizes that I'll eat and whether they'll take me through to my next meal. Every so often, I audit my portion sizes to make sure that there's no portion creep.

I just thought that I'd put this here as an illustration of someone whose first attempt with JUDDD got nowhere. (As I've previously said, I'm fairly sure that after 9months of conventional calorie counting and constantly having to lower my intake to achieve any scale change, I was eating at too low a level to benefit from JUDDD.)

When I re-booted JUDDD, I still had lengthy plateaus but the overall trend was downwards. After reaching my original goal weight, I deliberately maintained my weight for 6 months while gradually increasing my food intake. I think this contributed to me being able to change my body composition for the better this year (dropping to the current approx. 23-25% body fat from the June 2013 42%: also an additional shift of 22lbs).

Some of you will have seen that I expected the recomposition to take 1-2 years after my Dxa scan in March but it has happened more rapidly than that. For no readily apparent reason except that, perhaps, I had the correct data to underpin my choices. It feels like tempting Providence to say this but I can only think that JUDDD and my body have been collaborating and have worked things out according to their own logic and schedule once I had the appropriate information on which to base my decisions.*

Future events and results may prove me wrong is my obvious caveat but, for now, it's my best explanation. We do what we can to create the appropriate circumstances but we have to trust that our bodies and JUDDD have a schedule that makes sense to them, no matter how much more rapidly we'd like things to happen or we'd like a guaranteed outcome within our own emotional timeframe.

*I would hope that the sarcopenia makes me unique snowflake among my comparable cohort - not that I want to be unique but otherwise the option is to advise everyone to obtain an accurate body composition analysis and although it's horrendously expensive in the UK, I know it's still a substantial expense in the USA. NB: there's little point spending the money on an analysis if you know that you're not in the right frame of mind to commit to any eating schedule or WOE that you might need to design in response to it. As the adage says: Don't order a test if you don't know what you'll do with the results.
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Old 10-06-2014, 03:48 AM   #12
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Old 10-06-2014, 07:21 AM   #13
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Always good to read your thoughtful and incisive posts Slow.

You have amazed me over this whole business of the Sarcopenia, and your upcoming surgeries. You are 'something else' as they say.
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Old 10-07-2014, 07:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
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I've experimented with several variations on WOE during this time with JUDDD. For the last 15months or so, I've settled into a modified ketogenic WOE as this helps me to control the migraines.

I just thought that I'd put this here as an illustration of someone whose first attempt with JUDDD got nowhere. (As I've previously said, I'm fairly sure that after 9months of conventional calorie counting and constantly having to lower my intake to achieve any scale change, I was eating at too low a level to benefit from JUDDD.)

When I re-booted JUDDD, I still had lengthy plateaus but the overall trend was downwards. After reaching my original goal weight, I deliberately maintained my weight for 6 months while gradually increasing my food intake. I think this contributed to me being able to change my body composition for the better this year (dropping to the current approx. 23-25% body fat from the June 2013 42%: also an additional shift of 22lbs).

For no readily apparent reason except that, perhaps, I had the correct data to underpin my choices. ....once I had the appropriate information on which to base my decisions.*

*I would ...advise everyone to obtain an accurate body composition analysis .
Hi SS,
I would like to ask you a few questions:

What other WOE did you try while doing JUDDD or did you stop JUDDD and try other WOE then come back to JUDDD?

How long did you try JUDDD the first time and how long elapsed before you came back to it? And what were you doing in the meantime?

So you lost to goal with JUDDD the 2nd time?

Was the increasing kcal's for the 6 months of maintaining your period of reverse dieting?

What else do you think contributed to body recomposition this year?

What was the correct data that you obtained that underpinned your choices and helped you lose fat? Was it just following JUDDD or was it info after getting the DEXA scan and advice on how to reverse sarcopenia?

If you think I am being too nosey just tell me to shut up! Perhaps all the answers to my questions are in other posts here somewhere but i am too lazy to go and read them all.......
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Before ...5'2" 63 years old 2/1/2011 HFLC lost 21 lbs 156-135 lbs...5/2012 Stayed HFLC Maintained 2 yrs.
5/2014 (tried increasing carbs)-->140 lbs 7/2014 Began weight training; no loss
7/28/14 Began LCarb and low kcal for 2 wks. lost to 135.5 lbs

8/9/14 Begin JUDDD ...135.5 --
10/12/14 125.5 lbs BMR1188 TDEE 1425
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:21 AM   #15
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Perhaps all the answers to my questions are in other posts here somewhere but i am too lazy to go and read them all.......
Yes, they are (and some in the linked post above, iirc).

I'm a tad over-extended at present so I can't pull my answers together. If it's still relevant, I might be able to have a go when I'm rehabbing from the surgery, but that won't be in the near future.

Roughly tho' - I've eaten moderate-lowish carb for >10 years so that was my WOE before and during 1st attempt at JUDDD (and sustained during the preceding kcal restriction diet). I didn't change that during JUDDD 1 - the period in the long grass - or the earlier part of JUDDD 2 (the reboot).

Early JUDDD 2 had a month-long Potato Hack by way of a very considerable change (details in multiple posts). But, that PH so suppressed my appetite that I never left a ketotic state during that time. And, I only did it after a 6 week plateau.

I moved to a modified ketogenic diet for migraine control when I took a maintenance break. I don't recommend this unless someone has neurological issues to control as it's a faff and pretty anti-social.

I lost to my original goal during JUDDD 2 in 2013 (I'm still in JUDDD 2 as far as I'm concerned as I've never left the schedule).

Yes, I reverse dieted from the Summer of 2013 until beginning of 2014 which was my weight maintenance period (at original goal weight).

The info. was the data on the body composition from the Dxa scan. There is no advice on reversing sarcopenia - I haven't reversed it, I've merely reduced from a state of sarcopenic obesity to sarcopenia. What I did was something I had to research for myself in context of how I eat and my activity levels and what I knew from the scan.

Beyond a certain point, sarcopenia isn't relative, it's a calculation based on the actual amount of skeletal muscle you have in your arms and legs - so, tho' I've reduced the fat, I still have low muscle mass.
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Old 10-09-2014, 01:33 PM   #16
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Thanks SS I really appreciate it....
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Before ...5'2" 63 years old 2/1/2011 HFLC lost 21 lbs 156-135 lbs...5/2012 Stayed HFLC Maintained 2 yrs.
5/2014 (tried increasing carbs)-->140 lbs 7/2014 Began weight training; no loss
7/28/14 Began LCarb and low kcal for 2 wks. lost to 135.5 lbs

8/9/14 Begin JUDDD ...135.5 --
10/12/14 125.5 lbs BMR1188 TDEE 1425
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Old 10-11-2014, 10:49 AM   #17
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Quote:
I was already keto-adapted and weight loss stalled when I started JUDDD. I stayed on LCHF foods until appetite suppression was well established. Then I reintroduced carbs very gradually (and with no impact to weight loss and no carb-cravings). By 2.5 months into JUDDD I was eating whatever.....
That's the point...this is YOUR experience. It's not possible to generalize for all people based on your personal experience! We are all different, with different health histories and in different situations. It is good that you know what works for you, what foods you can eat without ill effects, that your body can handle intermittent fasting with ease, and so on; but this isn't necessarily the same for others.
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Old 10-12-2014, 06:57 AM   #18
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I think that everyone on this thread is just talking in terms of their own experience. No one's saying their own experience will work for someone else. If another person gets something useful from it - perhaps the feeling of not being alone, perhaps something more specific - well, that's why we're all here, sharing and supporting
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Old 10-12-2014, 07:00 AM   #19
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I think that everyone on this thread is just talking in terms of their own experience. No one's saying their own experience will work for someone else. If another person gets something useful from it - perhaps the feeling of not being alone, perhaps something more specific - well, that's why we're all here, sharing and supporting
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Old 10-12-2014, 08:48 AM   #20
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All any of us can ever share is our own experience.

That's why I prefer LCF and the JUDDD board in particular over other internet communities I have found. There are far fewer (to none here with the JUDDD Buds) people that will tell you that you are a numbskull for not doing it their way and if their way doesn't work you must be lying.
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Old 10-12-2014, 10:17 AM   #21
Heather
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: California
Posts: 659
Gallery: Heather
Stats: 175.8/152.6/145-150
WOE: JUDDD/Potato Hack
Start Date: Restart 6/27/14 - Loss: 23.2 lbs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kissa View Post
Always good to read your thoughtful and incisive posts Slow.

You have amazed me over this whole business of the Sarcopenia, and your upcoming surgeries. You are 'something else' as they say.
SlowSure - When are your upcoming surgeries scheduled? Excuse me if you've already posted it somewhere. We want to keep updated on that. Maybe I missed something.
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July loss: 9.4 lbs.
Aug loss: 8.2 lbs.
Sept loss: 2.8 lbs.

Window of 145-150 goal: Only 2.6 lbs. to go.
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Old 08-12-2017, 06:13 AM   #22
Ahna
Senior LCF Member
 
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 330
Gallery: Ahna
Stats: 218.2/ 145.8/ 147
WOE: Juddd / OMAD/ IF
Start Date: October 2013 started weight loss journey
Bump
__________________
Lost around 70 lbs in 19 weeks or so counting bites, Intermittent Fasting and Exercise !

I'm a Juddd girl. 5 feet 6.5" Goal 147 lbs
Goal range 143-149.8 lbs

Been in maintenance for 3.5 years+ (Not perfect)

Juddd Maintenance: Juddd + OMAD Lifestyle (One Meal a Day) One main meal a day with "snack" inside a 4-5+ hour window on both Up and Down days
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