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Old 08-03-2017, 08:52 AM   #721
aleriaaa
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Honeypie - Dont fret!! You will have amazing results come Saturday!!! Its like days away!!! 2 days in stillman years is like 2 weeks!!! Im sure the seltzer is making you feel stuffed, not the meat!! So bubbly and gassy. Youre waking up feeling empty and flat, right? You are gonna be fine!! xoxox
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:14 PM   #722
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I need you girls to whip me back into shape! Between the AC being broken for 6 days and not sleeping my eating has gone to crap!!
Good news is AC guy got us up and running today!
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Old 08-03-2017, 12:58 PM   #723
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Ugggghhh I'm really tired and sluggish today. not sure why because I slept GREAT.. in fact, for the past 3 nights. Maybe 'people' are making me this way?? lol

I came home for a short break during my double shift and will take the kids to their 1:1 swim lesson, then go back tonight from 530-9. I think my brain is just tired....

I am hoping for a good report from the scale tomorrow, but if that doesn't happen I plan to tighten the reigns a bit.

I'm also (TAKING A DEEP BREATH AFRAID TO COME OUT WITH THIS... so please don't freak out or jump all over me for saying this) beginning to get a TEENSY bit worried about all the protein I'm eating. Sometimes close to 200 grams and I'm 125 lbs. Is that 'bad' long term??? Believe me I know it's not going to damage my kidneys or whatnot... I don't believe that old tale...I am more concerned about all the animal protein, reading that high animal protein diet is bad as smoking... (I know about research design too and I know studies can be flawed and biased and trying to keep that in mind). I wonder about all the breakdown products of the protein... I'm sure it's ok short term but can I keep it up very long??? Or should I just resign myself to 'ah something's eventually going to kill me, everything's bad in some way!'

I know the research and have read a lot.... plant protein vs animal, reducing protein in middle age/increasing after 65, maybe its all hype/nonsense, advanced glycation end products...Next week they'll be saying protein cures all..... Am I worrying over nothing??


I've done plant based eating for periods of time in my life, last year I did a potato diet for months.. I eventually developed terrible yeast growth in my body and uncontrollable itching---- but it WAS an extremely unbalanced diet (not intended to be ONLY potatoes for that long), I was supposed to be adding other things but really wasn't doing that.

Maybe I need to transition to plants after I lose what I want to?

Any supportive feedback you have would be welcomed, (and again I'm a tiny bit fearful to say anything REMOTELY negative about the consumption of protein on a Stillman diet board so please be kind).
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Old 08-03-2017, 01:18 PM   #724
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Don't be scared to ever say anything, DL!

Well... to put your mind at rest, there are VERY wide recommendations amongst doctors, given for what could be an acceptable range.

Your protein is high right now because greek yogurt + protein powder is very concentrated.

However, general consensus will always be even amongst medical professionals, that people who exercise can definitely use a lot more.

Dr. Phinney and Volek give MUCH higher acceptable ranges than Dr Fung, basically like 3-4x, and they even say it is necessary during times of active weight loss.

For sure you can reassess when you get to your goal.

Even Phinney and Volek's give ranges, even at the TOP end, are less than HALF of levels that would maybe be dangerous long term.

I have been hitting 180g for the last week, instead of the 150g that "in my mind" I would like to be at. Am I worried? No.
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Old 08-03-2017, 02:37 PM   #725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeypie View Post
Don't be scared to ever say anything, DL!

Well... to put your mind at rest, there are VERY wide recommendations amongst doctors, given for what could be an acceptable range.

Your protein is high right now because greek yogurt + protein powder is very concentrated.

However, general consensus will always be even amongst medical professionals, that people who exercise can definitely use a lot more.

Dr. Phinney and Volek give MUCH higher acceptable ranges than Dr Fung, basically like 3-4x, and they even say it is necessary during times of active weight loss.

For sure you can reassess when you get to your goal.

Even Phinney and Volek's give ranges, even at the TOP end, are less than HALF of levels that would maybe be dangerous long term.

I have been hitting 180g for the last week, instead of the 150g that "in my mind" I would like to be at. Am I worried? No.
Thanks honeypie! Yes sometimes I just need to relax and trust the process.

Even if I don't see a loss tomorrow, I'm still hanging in there because I'm so glad to have stopped bingeing all the time. Extra protein has helped so much with that.
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:29 PM   #726
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From an article I mistakenly linked to instead of copying:

Controversy in Daily Protein Requirement Recommendations

We've established that the daily protein requirement is constant for each individual. However, there are differing opinions on how the daily protein requirement recommendation should be calculated. Several highly respected authorities on protein and ketogenic diets have very different opinions on this subject. I've summarized their positions as I interpret them below:

Dr. Donald Layman

Dr. Donald Layman, a former nutrition professor and research scientist at the University of Illinois has been specifically researching the effects of dietary protein on human health for three decades.

Dr. Laymanís studies have indicated that optimal amounts of dietary protein play important roles in protein synthesis, cell signaling, hunger and satiety, metabolic temperature regulation and blood sugar regulation. These metabolic pathways are triggered by and dependent upon optimal amounts of protein intake and in particular, the amount of leucine, a branched chain amino acid.


In a paper published in 2009, Dr. Layman and his team provide guidelines about the importance of a daily protein requirement for adults based on per-meal consumption rather than daily totals:

On a daily basis, Dr. Layman says that the total daily amount of protein eaten is not as important as ensuring that you get at least 30 grams of protein at each meal (about 4.5 ounces of meat, fish, poultry, or a scoop or two of whey protein powder) to maximize leucine availability. It is especially important to eat 30 grams of protein at breakfast, because this also sets the stage for reduced hunger the rest of the day.
Consuming at least 30 grams of protein at each meal is critical because it triggers the insulin-mTOR metabolic pathway for skeletal muscle protein synthesis and mitochondrial biogenesis. This increase in protein synthesis and mitochondrial proliferation then increases thermogenesis (calorie burning). In fact, Dr. Layman says the energy expenditure of muscles involved in protein synthesis is greater than the expenditure when the muscle is doing intense exercise. This point is especially important for people wanting to lose fat (but not muscle) and for the elderly to prevent sarcopenia, which is muscle loss associated with old age.
If you eat less than 30 grams of protein at each meal, there is no protein synthesis effect. The protein is then wasted as simple calories. It gets converted to glucose or fat.
For those with safety concerns, Dr. Laymanís research shows that consuming protein levels of up to 2.5-3.0 grams/kg ideal body weight of protein intake is safe. He has found in his research that most adults canít eat more than that each day because of satiety issues. Think of attempting to eat a 2 inch thick steak the size of a 10 inch dinner plate. That feeling you get when you consider eating the whole thing at once is an example of satiety.
Laymanís research shows that protein intake should be consistent from meal to meal AND from day to day. Eating large amounts all at once is not good, and much of the excess is lost, while at meals with low protein, you get no benefit.
What about proteinís effect on blood sugar and insulin? Dr. Layman said his research shows that protein, and even branched chain amino acids (leucine, isoleucine and valine) cause a much lower insulin response than that of glucose from carbs. (The insulin response of protein is only about 20% of what carbohydrate intake causes.) Protein causes a "Phase 1" short term response, whereas consuming carbohydrates causes a much longer term "Phase 2" response. It's this "Phase 2" response which is more detrimental.
This makes sense to me and explains why eating protein and carb together (for instance, eating sweetened yogurt) causes a larger insulin spike. You get both a Phase 1 and Phase 2 response combined.

---------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Ron Rosedale

Dr. Ron Rosedale, a pioneer in leptin research, advocates for a daily protein requirement which is lower than recommended by other experts. He discusses his reasoning here. Dr. Rosedale associates higher protein intakes with higher blood sugar and says the triggering of the mTOR metabolic pathway and thermogenesis has detrimental effects which translate into a decrease in longevity.

Dr. Rosedale recommends that protein intake equal 1 g/kg of ideal body weight minus 10%. So for instance, if your ideal body weight is 150 pounds:

Divide 150 pounds by 2.2 = 68 kilograms
Multiply 68 x 1 = 68 grams of protein. Now subtract 10%.
Multiply 68 x 10% = 6.8 grams
68 - 6.8 = about 61 grams of protein per day.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lyle McDonald

Lyle McDonald, in his book The Ketogenic Diet explains that because of the metabolic adaptations which happen as the time spent on a ketogenic diet increases, the daily protein requirement is higher during the first three weeks on the diet than it is once the body has adapted through ketosis.

His calculations are based on what studies have shown about brain glucose requirements when carbohydrate or food intake is restricted.

At the beginning of a ketogenic diet, the brain requires a larger amount of glucose. To spare muscles from being converted to glucose to supply the brain, a dietary protein intake of 150 grams per day is suggested to minimize the loss of muscle mass to glucose production.

However, after 3 weeks on a ketogenic diet, the body has adapted to ketosis and the brain is using ketone bodies for fuel for the most part. This adaptation means a much smaller amount of glucose is needed for brain function. At this point, the daily protein requirement drops significantly, and only about 50 grams of dietary protein are needed per day to spare muscle mass. (He notes that intense exercise or a higher carb intake would alter these recommendations to some extent).

In the real world, I've found a good indicator which alerts me that I'm not eating enough protein - my eyes get very dry, especially at night. Eating more protein resolves the issue for me. I believe this has to do with the body reducing mucus production when protein intake is too low. (Lucas Tafur talks about this here). A simple craving for protein foods is a good indicator as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Jeff Volek, Dr. Eric Westman, and Dr. Steve Phinney


Women
Height (in shoes, 1-inch heels) grams per day
4' 10" 63-123
4' 11" 64-130
5' 0" 65-135
5' 1" 66-138
5' 2" 70-145
5' 3" 71-149
5' 4" 71-149
5' 5" 73-152
5' 6" 75-156
5' 7" 76-159
5' 8" 78-162
5' 9" 80-166
5' 10" 81-169
5' 11" 83-173
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Week 1, 07/08: -0.7 lb (Had 2 glasses wine! RUINED my week's results!)
Week 2, 07/15: -6.0 lbs
Week 3, 07/22: -0.0 lbs (TOM)
Week 4, 07/29: -5.1 lbs
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:31 PM   #727
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As I was saying, I've been over what it says that my range should be for the last week, and I think that's fine. Particularly as Phinney and Volek are talking in the chart about normal eating, and on top of that, we are doing Stillmans.

I don't think in the short term I would freak out for being over, and like you, the higher protein REALLY stops me from having things I shouldn't be.

I am very grateful for that, and for the associated peace of mind.

I am not fat-phobic though, and I do plan to transition to protein fully within Phinney and Volek ranges when I get to goal - but again, that is a LONG way away for me.

I hope this is somewhat helpful, for context at least!
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Week 1, 07/08: -0.7 lb (Had 2 glasses wine! RUINED my week's results!)
Week 2, 07/15: -6.0 lbs
Week 3, 07/22: -0.0 lbs (TOM)
Week 4, 07/29: -5.1 lbs

Last edited by honeypie; 08-03-2017 at 03:33 PM..
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:34 PM   #728
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Quote:
Honeypie - Dont fret!! You will have amazing results come Saturday!!! Its like days away!!! 2 days in stillman years is like 2 weeks!!!
Thank you so much, Al!!! I really hope so!!!
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Week 1, 07/08: -0.7 lb (Had 2 glasses wine! RUINED my week's results!)
Week 2, 07/15: -6.0 lbs
Week 3, 07/22: -0.0 lbs (TOM)
Week 4, 07/29: -5.1 lbs
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Old 08-03-2017, 03:45 PM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeypie View Post
From an article I mistakenly linked to instead of copying:

Controversy in Daily Protein Requirement Recommendations

We've established that the daily protein requirement is constant for each individual. However, there are differing opinions on how the daily protein requirement recommendation should be calculated. Several highly respected authorities on protein and ketogenic diets have very different opinions on this subject. I've summarized their positions as I interpret them below:

Dr. Donald Layman

Dr. Donald Layman, a former nutrition professor and research scientist at the University of Illinois has been specifically researching the effects of dietary protein on human health for three decades.

Dr. Layman’s studies have indicated that optimal amounts of dietary protein play important roles in protein synthesis, cell signaling, hunger and satiety, metabolic temperature regulation and blood sugar regulation. These metabolic pathways are triggered by and dependent upon optimal amounts of protein intake and in particular, the amount of leucine, a branched chain amino acid.


In a paper published in 2009, Dr. Layman and his team provide guidelines about the importance of a daily protein requirement for adults based on per-meal consumption rather than daily totals:

On a daily basis, Dr. Layman says that the total daily amount of protein eaten is not as important as ensuring that you get at least 30 grams of protein at each meal (about 4.5 ounces of meat, fish, poultry, or a scoop or two of whey protein powder) to maximize leucine availability. It is especially important to eat 30 grams of protein at breakfast, because this also sets the stage for reduced hunger the rest of the day.
Consuming at least 30 grams of protein at each meal is critical because it triggers the insulin-mTOR metabolic pathway for skeletal muscle protein synthesis and mitochondrial biogenesis. This increase in protein synthesis and mitochondrial proliferation then increases thermogenesis (calorie burning). In fact, Dr. Layman says the energy expenditure of muscles involved in protein synthesis is greater than the expenditure when the muscle is doing intense exercise. This point is especially important for people wanting to lose fat (but not muscle) and for the elderly to prevent sarcopenia, which is muscle loss associated with old age.
If you eat less than 30 grams of protein at each meal, there is no protein synthesis effect. The protein is then wasted as simple calories. It gets converted to glucose or fat.
For those with safety concerns, Dr. Layman’s research shows that consuming protein levels of up to 2.5-3.0 grams/kg ideal body weight of protein intake is safe. He has found in his research that most adults can’t eat more than that each day because of satiety issues. Think of attempting to eat a 2 inch thick steak the size of a 10 inch dinner plate. That feeling you get when you consider eating the whole thing at once is an example of satiety.
Layman’s research shows that protein intake should be consistent from meal to meal AND from day to day. Eating large amounts all at once is not good, and much of the excess is lost, while at meals with low protein, you get no benefit.
What about protein’s effect on blood sugar and insulin? Dr. Layman said his research shows that protein, and even branched chain amino acids (leucine, isoleucine and valine) cause a much lower insulin response than that of glucose from carbs. (The insulin response of protein is only about 20% of what carbohydrate intake causes.) Protein causes a "Phase 1" short term response, whereas consuming carbohydrates causes a much longer term "Phase 2" response. It's this "Phase 2" response which is more detrimental.
This makes sense to me and explains why eating protein and carb together (for instance, eating sweetened yogurt) causes a larger insulin spike. You get both a Phase 1 and Phase 2 response combined.

---------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Ron Rosedale

Dr. Ron Rosedale, a pioneer in leptin research, advocates for a daily protein requirement which is lower than recommended by other experts. He discusses his reasoning here. Dr. Rosedale associates higher protein intakes with higher blood sugar and says the triggering of the mTOR metabolic pathway and thermogenesis has detrimental effects which translate into a decrease in longevity.

Dr. Rosedale recommends that protein intake equal 1 g/kg of ideal body weight minus 10%. So for instance, if your ideal body weight is 150 pounds:

Divide 150 pounds by 2.2 = 68 kilograms
Multiply 68 x 1 = 68 grams of protein. Now subtract 10%.
Multiply 68 x 10% = 6.8 grams
68 - 6.8 = about 61 grams of protein per day.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lyle McDonald

Lyle McDonald, in his book The Ketogenic Diet explains that because of the metabolic adaptations which happen as the time spent on a ketogenic diet increases, the daily protein requirement is higher during the first three weeks on the diet than it is once the body has adapted through ketosis.

His calculations are based on what studies have shown about brain glucose requirements when carbohydrate or food intake is restricted.

At the beginning of a ketogenic diet, the brain requires a larger amount of glucose. To spare muscles from being converted to glucose to supply the brain, a dietary protein intake of 150 grams per day is suggested to minimize the loss of muscle mass to glucose production.

However, after 3 weeks on a ketogenic diet, the body has adapted to ketosis and the brain is using ketone bodies for fuel for the most part. This adaptation means a much smaller amount of glucose is needed for brain function. At this point, the daily protein requirement drops significantly, and only about 50 grams of dietary protein are needed per day to spare muscle mass. (He notes that intense exercise or a higher carb intake would alter these recommendations to some extent).

In the real world, I've found a good indicator which alerts me that I'm not eating enough protein - my eyes get very dry, especially at night. Eating more protein resolves the issue for me. I believe this has to do with the body reducing mucus production when protein intake is too low. (Lucas Tafur talks about this here). A simple craving for protein foods is a good indicator as well.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Jeff Volek, Dr. Eric Westman, and Dr. Steve Phinney


Women
Height (in shoes, 1-inch heels) grams per day
4' 10" 63-123
4' 11" 64-130
5' 0" 65-135
5' 1" 66-138
5' 2" 70-145
5' 3" 71-149
5' 4" 71-149
5' 5" 73-152
5' 6" 75-156
5' 7" 76-159
5' 8" 78-162
5' 9" 80-166
5' 10" 81-169
5' 11" 83-173
Very interesting! Thanks for posting.
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Last edited by deanslist; 08-03-2017 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:07 PM   #730
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I am going to try Layman's approach! I never eat breakfast and probably am not getting 30 grams of protein per meal, so missing out on the calorie burning benefits!?
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:46 PM   #731
honeypie
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Brand new thread is here, ladies!

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/sh...d.php?t=889135
__________________
Week 1, 07/08: -0.7 lb (Had 2 glasses wine! RUINED my week's results!)
Week 2, 07/15: -6.0 lbs
Week 3, 07/22: -0.0 lbs (TOM)
Week 4, 07/29: -5.1 lbs
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