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Old 08-17-2017, 12:57 PM   #31
Carly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post
Hi Carly,

It absolutely depends on how much stored food (i.e. fat stores) you have on board. For someone starting out at ideal body weight it would most likely be fatal. Average fat loss per day of fasting is 0.5 pounds. So, theoretically I could go for 140 days just to get to my ideal body weight of 124. (Starting weight was 194.)

The longest recorded, documented fast was well over a year. (Starting weight in excess of 400 pounds, ending weight 170 pounds.)

The human body is amazing. Not only in that it can survive and thrive in such incredibly diverse environments, but also that it can store enough reserves in times of plenty to get someone through months of famine.

Are you doing two day fasts now or mostly sticking with the JUDD protocol??
I do JUDDD, OMAD style. On some of my DDs I fast, so I go from dinner on Sunday to Dinner on Tuesday (48 or so hours) with zero food, but I have powdered creamer in my coffee.

I fast daily for 23-26 hours depending when one dinner ends and the next starts, but on my DD the "dinner" would be about 200 calories if I chose to eat. On my UDs I tend to eat what ever it is I want, but my maintenance calories are pretty low, so nothing to extravagant on T, TH, S and S when I have my UDs.
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JUDDD changed my life. It transformed my health, gave me freedom and restored my confidence.

JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

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Old 08-17-2017, 01:02 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post

The longest recorded, documented fast was well over a year. (Starting weight in excess of 400 pounds, ending weight 170 pounds.)
This person literally ate no food for over 1 year? I understand that they had a lot of stored "energy", but I don't think when you use fat for fuel that you get any nutrients, so this person must have been supplementing with quite a lot of vitamins and minerals, but I don't understand how they didn't need protein for over a year.

I'd be very interested in reading about that if you can tell me what to search for that would be great.
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JUDDD changed my life. It transformed my health, gave me freedom and restored my confidence.

JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

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Old 08-17-2017, 01:26 PM   #33
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382 days to be exact. He's sort of the "wonder child" of extended fasting because, other than about a 15 pound gain, he kept the weight off.

Here's the link for the journal article:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2495396/

Also - much more readable and enjoyable - Google:

Total Starvation – 382 days without Food [Study]
Written by Chris on February 21, 2014

Both of these go over which supplements he took and for how long.

The thing about long fasts is that your body recycles a lot of waste material it no longer needs (connective tissue, excess skin, old cells, etc.) to get the amino acids (protein) it does need. That's why for many people losing a large amount of weight by fasting doesn't result in loose baggy skin - the excess skin was used to provide the needed amino acids during the fast.

He's also referred to repeatedly by Jason Fung on his blog and in his books.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:43 PM   #34
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Thanks Carolyn. I definitely believe that IF is healthy and that there are great health benefits. I truly believe that we were not meant to eat 3 meals a day with snacks. That being said, I'm not so sure how many people could fast for longer than a couple weeks without a great deal of medical oversight.

You seem to be doing well, though. Are you consuming any calories via bone broth or other means or strictly water?
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JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

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Old 08-17-2017, 02:32 PM   #35
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For any one on meds of any sort or who isn't quite healthy, I certainly wouldn't recommend they try an unsupervised extended fast of more than a week or so. I'm fortunate that at 64 I have no health issues other than insulin resistance and being overweight (formerly mildly - moderately obese).

I do a "Fung style" modified fast. In the morning I make a 16 oz. coffee with 3 tablespoons heavy cream (150 calories) in a thermos type travel mug and sip on that throughout the day. When it's gone - it's gone. No more for that day. I also drink 1 or two cups of chicken boullion per day for the salt. Tried bone broth, but it made me nauseous.

I do take supplements. A high quality whole good multi, CoQ10, fish oil, magnesium since the beginning. Just started last week on potassium (750mg twice a day, calcium and phosphorus (drops). Last week I started feeling incredibly exhausted, not unwell just very tired - was seriously thinking it was time to call it off when another thread mentioned potassium deficiency as a cause of fatigue. Once I added the potassium and calcium I feel great again - plenty of energy.

JUDD seems to have worked beautifully for you. Fasting 3days per week 36 - 42 hours wasn't quite strong enough for me - it helped, but couldn't overcome the IR and central obesity.
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post

JUDD seems to have worked beautifully for you. Fasting 3days per week 36 - 42 hours wasn't quite strong enough for me - it helped, but couldn't overcome the IR and central obesity.
It really did and for that I'm extremely grateful. I'm a big believer in weight loss being a direct result from a calorie deficit, so I'm certain that fasting for periods of time will result in weight loss and it does seem that there are certainly additional health benefits to fasting in addition to weight loss. I believe that IF cured my Type II diabetes and I can say it was cured, because I can consume sugar and carbs with no ill effect on my blood glucose, fasting BG or A1c. That certainly was not the case before starting JUDDD (IF), when I required a Byeatta injection 2x a day and my A1c was still a 9.8

At my last physical in June my Fasting BG was 66 (I feel fine when my BG is in the 60's), my blood pressure was 99/60 (I also feel fine with that blood pressure) my LDL chol. was 93 and HDL was 67 with Triglycerides 43. My PCP does not test my A1c any longer, since she does not feel I'm diabetic and it had settled around 5.0 for a couple years, so she doesn't test it anymore.

I'm so glad this longer fast is working for you. I don't think I could handle it, but very interested in following your journey.
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JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

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Old 08-19-2017, 01:03 PM   #37
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Hi Carly,

Your success and obvious delight with JUDDD as a way of life is making me look very seriously at trying it for maintenance/continued loss once I end this fast.

I'm a big believer in the health benefits of IF as a way of life, and I like the fact that JUDDD allows more freedom of choice in dietary selections. . .

Just curious - did you use the JUDDD calculator to determine your calorie range? If so, how accurate was it for you?
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Old 08-21-2017, 06:48 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post
Hi Carly,

Your success and obvious delight with JUDDD as a way of life is making me look very seriously at trying it for maintenance/continued loss once I end this fast.

I'm a big believer in the health benefits of IF as a way of life, and I like the fact that JUDDD allows more freedom of choice in dietary selections. . .

Just curious - did you use the JUDDD calculator to determine your calorie range? If so, how accurate was it for you?
I used the calculator all through my weight loss, but always tried to keep DDs under 200 calories. I felt the fasting benefits more the lower I kept my DDs.

I was able to use the calculator probably a year into maintenance, but slowly needed to bring the UD number down.

I'm not entirely sure why. I'm pretty active. I walk 6-8 miles 5-7 days a week and on paper my TDEE should be, on average, 1,700-1,900 with exercise and 1,500 without exercise, but in reality I need to eat lower than a daily average of 1,600-1,700.

Currently, on DDs (M, W, F) I try to keep in under 300 calories, lower is better, preferably only the calories from the powdered creamer in my coffee and on UDs (T, TH, S, S) I don't count, but I typically eat OMAD so that keeps calories in check.

My general stand on the calculator is to use it if you don't have any more personally specific data to use (such as a fitness tracker, tests from a doctor, etc...) for most people it's fairly accurate, but there are always going to be outliers. I have seen that people who are starting at 300+ pounds sometimes get an UD number that is a bit too high, but I've also seen people in that range lose really well with the calculator numbers.

As a general rule, we recommend setting the calculator for sedentary, since it seems overly generous with exercise calories. That being said- if you are training for a marathon or perform heavy manual labor for your job, you may want to use one higher level for activity, but again, most people have best losses without adding in exercise calories and using 20% WLM.

Once people get to maintenance they play around to see what works. Some keep the calories the same, but instead of EOD they have only 2-3 DD a weeks. Other stick with EOD and raise their DDs or raise their UDs.

JUDDD is really flexible. I love that no food group off limits, unless I choose to make it make it so and that it's very livable during weight loss and maintenance.
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JUDDD changed my life. It transformed my health, gave me freedom and restored my confidence.

JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

See my before and after pictures
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Old 08-21-2017, 07:40 AM   #39
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Your doing great. It really is amazing how much energy is generated from day 3 or 4 on . . .
Hope everything continues to go smoothly as you head toward your 10 - 14 day goal.
Well, I realized late last week that I had company coming for dinner on Saturday, so I broke my fast during the weekend

I am back fasting today... I have a picnic/potluck to go to this Saturday, so I'm doing 5 days this week. One thing's for sure, I totally feel so much better when I'm fasting.
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Old 08-21-2017, 08:25 AM   #40
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@cgwwilson: What dosage of potassium do you take, 2000mg?

As far as pre-fast condition goes I always struggled to get my weight down on calorie restriction diets. I found that my weight would not drop unless I went below 750 calories a day so my metabolism is clearly in need of some kind of miracle.

People are always critical of the fact that I had to drop but I think it was from a time in my life that I rarely had money to eat anything... just a few scraps here and there is certainly not good for your metabolism.

Anyhow, I am on day 7 of my water fast and have dropped around 1 kilo (2.2 lbs) a day. I am surprised that this is day 7 and my body and head are aching... it is even quite painful to walk up stairs... I am sure I will be "keto adapted" one day but my body seems to be fighting it at the moment.

I think I will go for a nap.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:29 AM   #41
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Anyhow, I am on day 7 of my water fast and have dropped around 1 kilo (2.2 lbs) a day. I am surprised that this is day 7 and my body and head are aching... it is even quite painful to walk up stairs... I am sure I will be "keto adapted" one day but my body seems to be fighting it at the moment.

I think I will go for a nap.
This could be a sign to stop the fast. Please be safe.
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JUDDD changed my life. It transformed my health, gave me freedom and restored my confidence.

JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

See my before and after pictures
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:30 PM   #42
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This could be a sign to stop the fast. Please be safe.
Thanks, I am feeling a bit better now.

This is the time just before my muscles start making use of the ketones. I expect a little resistance from my body... a mild headache and aching muscles are part of the course.

Of course, if I had heart issues, trouble breathing, real hunger or prolonged weakness etc. I would certainly end my fast.

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Old 08-21-2017, 05:15 PM   #43
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Sounds like a classic case of "Keto Flu"!! Glad you're feeling better. Fasting and Keto are both supposed to be good for "fixing" broken metabolisms. Let's hope so!

In answer to your question about how much potassium I take - it is close to 2000 mg a day - two extended release tabs of 750 mg each and about 300 - 500 mg more from electrolyte replacement drops.

I didn't seem to need the potassium until around day 40 - but of course everyone is different, and you'll need to figure out what your body needs.

Congrats on making it through your 1st week!
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:23 PM   #44
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Well, I realized late last week that I had company coming for dinner on Saturday, so I broke my fast during the weekend

I am back fasting today... I have a picnic/potluck to go to this Saturday, so I'm doing 5 days this week. One thing's for sure, I totally feel so much better when I'm fasting.
Glad you're doing so well! Moderate length fasts are very effective and a good way to really learn how your body responds. Incorporating fasting into everyday life is the key, I think. Whether it's daily IF, two or three 24-36 hour fasts per week or longer fasts we each need to figure out works best for our own bodies and mind sets.

I love extended fasts - so easy after day 2! Not only do I feel better, I treasure all the extra time it frees up!
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Old 08-21-2017, 05:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Carly View Post
I used the calculator all through my weight loss, but always tried to keep DDs under 200 calories. I felt the fasting benefits more the lower I kept my DDs.

I was able to use the calculator probably a year into maintenance, but slowly needed to bring the UD number down.

I'm not entirely sure why. I'm pretty active. I walk 6-8 miles 5-7 days a week and on paper my TDEE should be, on average, 1,700-1,900 with exercise and 1,500 without exercise, but in reality I need to eat lower than a daily average of 1,600-1,700.

Currently, on DDs (M, W, F) I try to keep in under 300 calories, lower is better, preferably only the calories from the powdered creamer in my coffee and on UDs (T, TH, S, S) I don't count, but I typically eat OMAD so that keeps calories in check.

My general stand on the calculator is to use it if you don't have any more personally specific data to use (such as a fitness tracker, tests from a doctor, etc...) for most people it's fairly accurate, but there are always going to be outliers. I have seen that people who are starting at 300+ pounds sometimes get an UD number that is a bit too high, but I've also seen people in that range lose really well with the calculator numbers.

As a general rule, we recommend setting the calculator for sedentary, since it seems overly generous with exercise calories. That being said- if you are training for a marathon or perform heavy manual labor for your job, you may want to use one higher level for activity, but again, most people have best losses without adding in exercise calories and using 20% WLM.

Once people get to maintenance they play around to see what works. Some keep the calories the same, but instead of EOD they have only 2-3 DD a weeks. Other stick with EOD and raise their DDs or raise their UDs.

JUDDD is really flexible. I love that no food group off limits, unless I choose to make it make it so and that it's very livable during weight loss and maintenance.
Hi Carly,

Thanks for the info on how you use(d) the JUDDD calculator. I ran my numbers and agree that they seemed high - gave me a value of 1950 calories per day which seems rather unrealistic.

I agree that not exceeding your caloric requirement is one large factor in maintaining. Certainly not the whole picture, as keeping insulin levels down is crucial, but still a significant part of the equation.

Thanks again!
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:24 AM   #46
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Hi Carly,

Thanks for the info on how you use(d) the JUDDD calculator. I ran my numbers and agree that they seemed high - gave me a value of 1950 calories per day which seems rather unrealistic.

I agree that not exceeding your caloric requirement is one large factor in maintaining. Certainly not the whole picture, as keeping insulin levels down is crucial, but still a significant part of the equation.

Thanks again!
The 1,950 would be for UDs and DDs would be in the 300-400 range, so daily average would be around 1,150, so surely a deficit. On the UDs it's important to get your nutritional needs met as well as enjoying your food, because that makes JUDDD extremely sustainable over the long term.

With the calculator the only way to know is to try those numbers for 3-4 weeks and if losses aren't happening to adjust from there. Most people are surprised just how much they can eat on UD- especially early on- and still lose really well.
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JUDDD changed my life. It transformed my health, gave me freedom and restored my confidence.

JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

See my before and after pictures
http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/we...ore-after.html
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:32 AM   #47
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Hi, I'm back to doing OMAD. Today is day 2, so far so good.
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Old 08-23-2017, 06:34 AM   #48
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Ok...so just when I get a bit comfortable, today is a little rough. Not horrible, but I'm making tea, so I have something warm in my belly to subside the hunger. I wish these forums were more active.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:26 AM   #49
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Ok...so just when I get a bit comfortable, today is a little rough. Not horrible, but I'm making tea, so I have something warm in my belly to subside the hunger. I wish these forums were more active.
Have you read the older Fung threads? We were chatty for a while.

It seems like there is not so much to talk about with fasting- just don't eat for x period of time. There are no recipes, no "can I eat this?" (except for the broth/keto coffee discussions I guess), no discussions of how many carbs or where to find specialty ingredients. Just don't eat. Then eat when its time.


Does anyone know if Dr. Fung started the new podcast they talked about after parting ways with Jimmy Moore? I read the IDM blog, but don't think anything has been talked about there.
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:31 AM   #50
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Does anyone know if Dr. Fung started the new podcast they talked about after parting ways with Jimmy Moore? I read the IDM blog, but don't think anything has been talked about there.
What's this? Did they have a falling out or something?
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:45 AM   #51
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What's this? Did they have a falling out or something?
I'm not sure, but it seemed pretty sudden. One week Dr. Fung and Megan were included and then- boom- they were not.
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JUDDD is very simple, very livable and very flexible. JUDDD allows weight loss and life to happen simultaneously.

See my before and after pictures
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Old 08-23-2017, 07:50 AM   #52
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What's this? Did they have a falling out or something?
I guess so. I never heard too many of the details except for here. As I understand it Jimmy was acting silly on-air, making jokes, calling Megan Ramos dumb names, playing songs like Super Freak (I heard all that and thought JM was behaving unprofessionally). Megan and Dr. Fung asked him to stop and he wouldn't. He believes his personality is why he has listeners, so they parted ways.

I think another issue the podcast had was Megan Ramos (some kind of assistant at the IDM clinic) said things that directly conflict with things Dr. Fung has said in his books or blog posts, with no explanation. She also often oversimplified things (to me anyway) to the point they made no sense. Like, while you are fasting if your blood sugar goes up, it is because you have come to a "pocket of sugar" in the fat you are burning.

By the end, I was only listening to the podcasts Dr. Fung was actually on.
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Old 08-23-2017, 08:13 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by GME View Post
I guess so. I never heard too many of the details except for here. As I understand it Jimmy was acting silly on-air, making jokes, calling Megan Ramos dumb names, playing songs like Super Freak (I heard all that and thought JM was behaving unprofessionally). Megan and Dr. Fung asked him to stop and he wouldn't. He believes his personality is why he has listeners, so they parted ways.

I think another issue the podcast had was Megan Ramos (some kind of assistant at the IDM clinic) said things that directly conflict with things Dr. Fung has said in his books or blog posts, with no explanation. She also often oversimplified things (to me anyway) to the point they made no sense. Like, while you are fasting if your blood sugar goes up, it is because you have come to a "pocket of sugar" in the fat you are burning.

By the end, I was only listening to the podcasts Dr. Fung was actually on.
I was not loving the podcast either. I'm not too crazy about Jim Moore either. Something about him just rubs me the wrong way. I feel like a lot of it is about the money for him.
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:00 AM   #54
MikeRatcliffe
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I am on day 9 of my fast and tested my bloods and am surprised at the results:
- blood glucose is 4.3 mmol (77.48 mg/dL)
- ketones are 4.7 mmol (84.68 mg/dL)

This gives me a GKI of 0.9, which is great.

Don't get me wrong, I am not overly obsessed with ketones or glucose but I like to understand how my body is reacting to the fasting state.

I am only drinking water and eating nothing so I don't understand how my blood glucose can be at 4.3 mmol so far into a fast.

I was also surprised this morning to have gained weight for the first time during my fast.

As for a day gaining weight I assume I am holding more water for whatever reason but I expected my blood sugar to be way below 4.3 mmol.

Does anybody know where this glucose could have come from and whether 4.3 mmol is a normal level 9 days into a fast?
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:20 AM   #55
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I don't know much about the blood sugar reading, but I am impressed with your fast!

I know the liver can dump glucose, but I'm not sure if that could still be going on 9 days in.
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Old 08-23-2017, 12:20 PM   #56
cgwwilson
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Great work!

Re: elevated glucose - go to either the DietDoctor or Intensive Dietary Management site and search "Dawn Phenomena". The Dawn Phenomena is well know to occur throughout the day during fasting.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:37 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by cgwwilson View Post
Great work!

Re: elevated glucose - go to either the DietDoctor or Intensive Dietary Management site and search "Dawn Phenomena". The Dawn Phenomena is well know to occur throughout the day during fasting.
Wow cgwwilson, you really know your stuff, thanks.

In a nutshell for those that don't know:
When you fast it affects a bunch of hormones that cause the liver to occasionally dump stored sugars into the blood... from what I can gather it can happen months until the liver's back to a normal sugar level.

Last edited by MikeRatcliffe; 08-23-2017 at 04:39 PM..
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:18 AM   #58
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I figured out the dirt with Jimmy Moore/ Jason Fung. If you google Jimmy Moore Jason Fung, the second link is to a ketogenic forum post, which people discuss the falling out. Apparently Jimmy's 'style' was to talk over guests, and he was too 'extra' for Jason Fung and his program director Megan Ramos. Jimmy was even calling Megan names?! I think he even went scorched earth on them in a facebook post, trying to turn people away from Fung/ Ramos?
He has since apologized for his behavior, though I have yet to read it.

I think the difference is that Jimmy was a low carb/ keto 'personality' - basically a guy who used keto to lose weight, and has since tried to make money off of it. Jason Fung is a legit medical doctor who has a reputation to maintain. I think I returned the keto clarity book on Kindle for a refund. It didn't have anything new in it, and the Phinney books are much better research-wise. I do have both of Fung's books.
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Old 08-24-2017, 08:07 AM   #59
cgwwilson
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Update: day 58 of a Fung style fast.
Non scale victories: waist has decreased from 40 to 35 inches, pants from size 14 to a 10/12 and tops from a 1X to a large. Weight loss: 30 pounds

Still going strong, but absolutely needing to supplement with potassium (2,250 mg /day) as well as phosphorus, magnesium and salt, otherwise I experience very significant muscle fatigue.

Still drinking one coffee with 4 tablespoons heavy cream (200 calories) and two cups chicken boullion per day (for the salt). I add the phosphorous drops plus a liquid electrolyte replacement to ice water which gives it a nice, tart flavor. Will very occasionally (once or twice a week) add a teaspoon or so of apple cider vinegar to a big glass of ice water for the tart flavor.

Life is getting very busy again after the summer downtime.

Hope everyone is doing well following their chosen path!
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Old 08-24-2017, 10:24 AM   #60
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Wow!
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